The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Deborah13]

2Cor 3:7-18 - "But the ministry of death, written and engraved, on stones, was glorious, so that....will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory."
v15 "But even to this day, when the law of Moses is read a veil lies on their heart."
v16 "Nevertheless, when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."
v17 "...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
v18 "But we all with unveiled face....are BEING TRANSFORMED into the same image..just as by the Spirit of Lord."

If we do works it is because the Spirit of the Lord is in us and He is transforming us.
He causes us to be righteous through Him. Not our works but HIS.
Even our faith is not our own. God gave us the faith to be saved and through His word we receive faith. HIS faith to us and HIS word to us.
Very humbling discovery my friends. Very humbling.

 

[rrowell]

2Cor 3:7-18 - "But the ministry of death, written and engraved, on stones, was glorious, so that....will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory."
v15 "But even to this day, when the law of Moses is read a veil lies on their heart."
v16 "Nevertheless, when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."
v17 "...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
v18 "But we all with unveiled face....are BEING TRANSFORMED into the same image..just as by the Spirit of Lord."

If we do works it is because the Spirit of the Lord is in us and He is transforming us.
He causes us to be righteous through Him. Not our works but HIS.
Even our faith is not our own. God gave us the faith to be saved and through His word we receive faith. HIS faith to us and HIS word to us.
Very humbling discovery my friends. Very humbling.

So "in us" Christ does it all, no obligatory part on the man, because if what you say is true once we are "in Christ" since Christ is perfect, we could not sin if we wanted to? is that what you are saying?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I believe that Romans 4:4-5 does not deny what Paul otherwise affirms in Romans 2 - that people are ultimately justified by their "good works".

Instead, the "worker" in Romans 4 is a metaphor. I am prepared to defend the following position: In Romans 4:4-5, Paul is not denying justification by good works, he is critiquing the specifically Jewish belief that God "owes" justification to the Jews simply because of their being born into a community that performs the works of the Law of Moses.

Rom 2:7,8:
To them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factions, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation.

As long as it is understood that "well doing" includes and is equivalent to obeying the truth in verse 8. "The truth" referring to Christ's NT gospel and not the law of Moses.

The worker in verse 4 is one who's reward is of debt and not grace. The only way I can see one's reward would not be of grace but something owed is if one were able to keep God's law perfectly and therefore be perfectly sinless. A perfectly sinless person does not need grace. Abraham was not a worker he did not try to merit salvation by keeping God's law perfectly but instead he had an obedient belief in God who justifies the sinner.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 2:7,8:
To them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factions, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation.

I'm posting as I have time...

But, anyway, how does this show that the work that faith produces does the actual justifying?

That is where you are getting confused. Faith 'apart from works' does not mean good works are not a necessary outcome of faith. What it means is the faith that produces good works is the actual justifying agent. So, please explain how we're supposed to get out of this verse that it is the performance of good works themselves that make a person righteous (justifies them).

The faith that saves is an obedient faith. That does not mean the obedience is what makes the obedient person righteous. The faith (in Christ's blood) that makes a person obedient is what justifies, all by itself, 'apart from works'.

 

[Drew]

The faith (in Christ's blood) that makes a person obedient is what justifies, all by itself, 'apart from works'.

Paul does not see things quite this way:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What do you think Paul is saying here? It sure seems like he is saying that eternal life is granted based on, yes, persistence in doing good.

I am convinced that Romans 2;6-7 is the Achilles heel of the "good deeds don't count for final salvation" position.

It is, I suggest, a clear, unambiguous, and direct statement that good works do "count".

In my many years I have seen all sorts of attempts to "explain away" this text, none of which work in my view. The most common one is this: Paul is speaking hypothetically, telling us what would be the case if we could indeed be saved by good works. There is no evidence to support this claim - nowhere in Romans 2 is there even a whiff of a sense that Paul is speaking hypothetically. And now for something really, really, really important: the fact that Paul elsewhere says we are saved by faith cannot, for the person who has a high view of scriptural inerrancy, be used to dismiss what he says in Romans 2. The correct approach is to see if there is a way to reconcile what Pauls says about salvation by faith with what he says here in Romans 2 about salvation by works. And while I will not get into the details in this post, there is a solution.

I will continue to point out how odd it would be for Paul, in Romans 2, to write something he knows to be false - namely that we will be saved by "good works" at the last judgement. To say that he is speaking hypothetically is basically a crafty way of saying he is mistaken.

Imagine me saying this: "The sky is red". Now imagine someone saying "Well, Drew is telling us what would be the case if the physical characteristics of our world were different - under those different conditions, the sky would indeed be red".

Such an explanation is bizarre and contrived.

So why do you think Paul would assert something he knows to be false?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul does not see things quite this way:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What do you think Paul is saying here? It sure seems like he is saying that eternal life is granted based on, yes, persistence in doing good.

Eternal life is based on a FAITH that persists in doing good.

The good works are the evidence of that faith. Just as evil deeds are the evidence of the absence of justifying faith. The difference being you earn the wages of wickedness by your wicked work, but eternal life is the gift of God not given in exchange for good work, even though good work must accompany the gift. The good work validates the faith as being genuine and able to justify...that's why it must accompany faith--not to justify, but as the expected outcome of the faith that justifies.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans NIV1984)

A person earns death with their unrepentant evil deeds, but a person can not earn eternal life with their good deeds. It is a GIFT of God, even though good deeds are very much the expected and obligatory outcome of faith.

 

[Drew]

Eternal life is based on a FAITH that persists in doing good.

Well, yes I can agree with this, as long as we agree with Paul that, at the last judgement, God will look at the "good works evidence" to determine final salvation.

That is, after all what Paul is clearly saying in Romans 2: No good works = no eternal life.

The good works are the evidence of that faith. Just as evil deeds are the evidence of the absence of justifying faith. The difference being you earn the wages of wickedness by your wicked work, but eternal life is the gift of God not given in exchange for good work, even though good work must accompany the gift. The good work validates the faith as being genuine and able to justify...that's why it must accompany faith--not to justify, but as the expected outcome of the faith that justifies.

I think we agree, although I would put it like this: "It is only through the gift of the Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, that a person is able to produce the good works that will justify him/her at the great judgement." At the end of the day, though, it appears that we agree that eternal life is effectively a gift.

I am pleased that, unless I misunderstand you, you join me in actually taking Romans 2:6-7 seriously. Many do not, as I suspect we will see.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we agree, although I would put it like this: "It is only through the gift of the Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, that a person is able to produce the good works that will justify him/her at the great judgement."

I only agree with this if 'justify' is being used in regard to this Biblical meaning of it...

to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right * (James' argument)

...NOT this one...

to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit * (Paul's argument)

* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justify

I am pleased that, unless I misunderstand you, you join me in actually taking Romans 2:6-7 seriously.

Honestly, I don't hear the 'faith alone' argument (properly known as 'the righteousness of faith apart from works' argument--Romans 4:6) presented in a way that suggests saving faith does not have to have good works attached.

The argument is the works that surely must accompany saving faith are not the actual agent of justification (justify, as in MAKING one righteous). The faith that motivates the good works that must accompany true saving faith does that all by itself ('apart from works', as Paul says).

Additionally, the 'faith apart from works' argument says that true saving faith must be seen in what it does...or it's probably not a 'faith' that can save, as James says. That is a very different argument than what 'works justification' people think we are saying, that saving faith doesn't have to do anything righteous. That is NOT the argument at all. It just doesn't have to do anything righteous to be MADE righteous before God. But it must do something righteous to SHOW a person as being righteous before God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm posting as I have time...

But, anyway, how does this show that the work that faith produces does the actual justifying?

That is where you are getting confused. Faith 'apart from works' does not mean good works are not a necessary outcome of faith. What it means is the faith that produces good works is the actual justifying agent. So, please explain how we're supposed to get out of this verse that it is the performance of good works themselves that make a person righteous (justifies them).

The faith that saves is an obedient faith. That does not mean the obedience is what makes the obedient person righteous. The faith (in Christ's blood) that makes a person obedient is what justifies, all by itself, 'apart from works'.

The purpose of that post of mine was to show that 'doing well' Rom 2:6,7 includes obeying the truth. According to that passage in Rom 2:6-11 God will render to each person according to his deeds. No verse anywhere says one will be judge according to if he had faith only or not. So your deeds wil either justify or condemn you, cf 2 Cor 5:10


Rom 5:1---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-----works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies


Since there is but just one way to be justified/saved, no alternatives, that can only mean that faith is equivalent to works, faith is a work. To suggest otherwise creates contradictions.

 

[Drew]

/The argument is the works that surely must accompany saving faith are not the actual agent of justification (justify, as in MAKING one righteous).

Well we disagree. And, frankly, I do not see Romans 2:6-7 is anything other than a clear, unambioguous assertion that, yes, "persistence in doing good" is the basis of getting eternal life, at least as far as the final judgement is concerned.

These are Paul's words, not mine:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I don't want to be skeptical, but we cannot get anywhere if you will not accept that, as a sentence in English, this statement says that "good works" are indeed the "basis" of getting eternal life, even if, as I believe Paul argues elsewhere (e.g. Romans 8) those "good works" are only produced as a result of prior faith.

"According to" means what it means. People will try to make it mean something else, but unless we obey the meanings of words, we can make scripture say anything we want.

I intend to provide detailed arguments that support taking Paul at his word in Romans 2: At the end, it is the good works - the persistence in doing good - that is the basis, the critierion, the "according to", that determines the granting of eternal life.

The only way to escape the implications of Romans 2:6-7 is to suggest there is a translation error.

Otherwise it means what it means! When you say someone gets something according to what they have done, that it is as clear and unambiguous a statement as possible that what you do is indeed the 'basis' for getting that thing.

Deny this and you are simply redefining words. And with that approach, anything is possible.

 

[rrowell]

Well we disagree. And, frankly, I do not see Romans 2:6-7 is anything other than a clear, unambioguous assertion that, yes, "persistence in doing good" is the basis of getting eternal life, at least as far as the final judgement is concerned.

These are Paul's words, not mine:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I don't want to be skeptical, but we cannot get anywhere if you will not accept that, as a sentence in English, this statement says that "good works" are indeed the "basis" of getting eternal life, even if, as I believe Paul argues elsewhere (e.g. Romans 8) those "good works" are only produced as a result of prior faith.

"According to" means what it means. People will try to make it mean something else, but unless we obey the meanings of words, we can make scripture say anything we want.

I intend to provide detailed arguments that support taking Paul at his word in Romans 2: At the end, it is the good works - the persistence in doing good - that is the basis, the critierion, the "according to", that determines the granting of eternal life.

The only way to escape the implications of Romans 2:6-7 is to suggest there is a translation error.

Otherwise it means what it means! When you say someone gets something according to what they have done, that it is as clear and unambiguous a statement as possible that what you do is indeed the 'basis' for getting that thing.

Deny this and you are simply redefining words. And with that approach, anything is possible.

Drew, I believe you may have hit the nail on the head...

I may agree with everything you have said unless I miss understand this one part where you said:

" even if, as I believe Paul argues elsewhere (e.g. Romans 8) those "good works" are only produced as a result of prior faith."

To an extent I agree with this, but the works you speak of I believe goes one step deeper... there is also the same obedient work involved to gain "faith", one cannot possibly have faith unless they do something, that something is "hear", I will agree that the "hearing" may be the result of another's "work" that has given the word for someone to hear:

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

but in the end, like you correctly said, if we rightly use scripture, hearing is something that must be done "a work" that produces "faith":

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[heymikey80]

Heb 11:8,17 show that Abrahams faith included works.

It says no such thing. Abraham's faith resulted in works. It doesn't include works -- it's a cause.

No one says the person is included in a car when he gets in. He's not a part of the car. He's carried by the car.

Works are carried by faith.

James 2:21 says Abraham was justifed by works.

James says "I'll show you faith by what I do." (2:18) And then he says "you see Abraham was justified by works" (2:21) James' meaning is so obvious it's pointless to argue it: you make conclusions based on how someone acts.

Gen 12:1,2,3,4 when God first approached Abram and told him to leave his land, home and kindred to go to a country God would show him, you are saying it is irrelevant if Abram left or not. Well it was not irrelevant for if he did not leave as God said then those promises would not have been fulfilled that were made about Abraham and Abraham would have been lost being in disobedience to God.

Horse puckey. Quit assigning to me assertions I don't believe. Your presumption is a lie: I've never said it's irrelevant. I said it is not in order to be saved.

Is there some reason you smeared me with your false opinions about what I think?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It says no such thing. Abraham's faith resulted in works. It doesn't include works -- it's a cause.

No one says the person is included in a car when he gets in. He's not a part of the car. He's carried by the car.

Works are carried by faith.

James says "I'll show you faith by what I do." (2:18) And then he says "you see Abraham was justified by works" (2:21) James' meaning is so obvious it's pointless to argue it: you make conclusions based on how someone acts.

Horse puckey. Quit assigning to me assertions I don't believe. Your presumption is a lie: I've never said it's irrelevant. I said it is not in order to be saved.

Is there some reason you smeared me with your false opinions about what I think?

Abraham's faith included works.

Gen 12:1-4 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran."

Where's the faith only here? If Abram had faith only here he would have just thought about leaving without actually leaving. He would have had a dead faith only until he actually left, i.e., he faith was nothing until it was acted upon by leaving. Abram would have been in disobedience to God's command to leave until he left. Just a faith only in thinking about leaving would only leave him in disobedience/sin. As James said faith witout works is dead, so a faith only without leaving his land, home and kindred would been a dead faith and remain a dead faith until he actually left.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

The verse cannot be any more plain in refuting the false teaching of faith only.

James 2:18,19 " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. "


James point here is that you cannot even prove that you have faith if you do not have works for the works shew (prove) the faith. The devils believe but their belief is dead being void of works. And a belief remains dead until it has works.

If obedience is not in order to be saved as you have said then you have made obedience irrelevant to being saved. If you say otherwise then you are going back on your position.


Question:

DID ABRAHAM'S LEAVING OR STAYING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING SAVED?

If you answer "Yes" then you owe me an apology for you have just made obedience irrelevant to his being saved.

You are also saying Abraham could have not left which would be disobedience to God's command to leave yet be saved in that disobedience. Yet no one will be saved who is in disobedience to God's commands.

If you answer "No", that his leaving did have something to do with his being saved then you are making his being saved conditional upon his obedient act in leaving.

So which is it?

 

[Drew]

Drew, I believe you may have hit the nail on the head...

Thanks. I sometimes feel like the boy who sees what others simply refuse to see - that the emperor has no clothes.

Again: I have never seen anything remotely close to an acceptable argument as to why we should not take Paul at his word: eternal life is granted according to, yes, what we have done.

The fact that Paul elsewhere says we are saved by grace does not justify disagreeing with Paul in Romans 2!!!

Paul's argument is, I suggest, this: On the basis of faith alone, we are given the Holy Spirit. And what does the Spirit do? He (or she) transforms us into the kind of person who does good works. At the end, it will on the basis of those works that eternal life is granted.

So we can accept that our faith in the present brings the Spirit that produces the good deeds that, at the future judgement, will result in our being granted eternal life.

To an extent I agree with this, but the works you speak of I believe goes one step deeper... there is also the same obedient work involved to gain "faith", one cannot possibly have faith unless they do something, that something is "hear", I will agree that the "hearing" may be the result of another's "work" that has given the word for someone to hear:

I agree.

 

[Webb]

Heb.11:8-10 clearly shows his faith did not receive the blessing of inheritance until AFTER he obeyed. And so throughout the sacred narrative of Heb.11 which describes the worthy exploits and faithful deeds of God's people of the OT era. The faith that received the blessing was always the faith that obeyed.

 

[heymikey80]

Abraham's faith included works.

"To the one who does not work but believes, his faith is credited as righteousness" Paul, speaking directly to the issue, separates faith from works. No interpretation, no inference, it's simply an explicit statement of Paul's.

Gen 12:1-4 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran."

Where's the faith only here? If Abram had faith only here he would have just thought about leaving without actually leaving.

A ridiculous mistake. Did you read what I said, that works result from the cause of the Spirit of God's presence????

If you're not reading and just reacting, then I've no interest in trying to parse through thoughtlessly inane reactions.

DID ABRAHAM'S LEAVING OR STAYING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING SAVED?

If you answer "Yes" then you owe me an apology for you have just made obedience irrelevant to his being saved.

No. It resulted from his being saved.

And you owe me the apology.

What's worse: all the misquotes about the Greek word translated "obedience", being presumed to mean "works" -- when it doesn't.

 

[heymikey80]

Heb.11:8-10 clearly shows his faith did not receive the blessing of inheritance until AFTER he obeyed. And so throughout the sacred narrative of Heb.11 which describes the worthy exploits and faithful deeds of God's people of the OT era. The faith that received the blessing was always the faith that obeyed.

The Apostle said "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised" Heb 11:39

The inheritance is a promise. And the promise was actually made (as someone else here quoted) in Gen 12:1-4 , before Abraham had lifted a finger to go.

 

[Webb]

Of course they didn't receive the promise at the time for the promise was forgiveness through Christ ( "Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward" Heb.112:26). They didn't have the shed blood of Christ and could not be made perfect without it, vs.39,40. Its my understanding that on the cross the blood of Jesus flowed backward to them as well as forward to us.

 

[Webb]

Regarding Gen.12:1-4, Abraham had to "get out" and go in order to began to see the promise. Its always the faith that obeys that receives the blessing.

 

[rrowell]

What's worse: all the misquotes about the Greek word translated "obedience", being presumed to mean "works" -- when it doesn't.

Are we going to have to go through that again on this thread too?