The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Deborah13]

With all respect, how is this simply a denial of what Paul actually writes? Does he write that "Eternal life is based on a FAITH that persists in doing good" in the following?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Frankly, I cannot think of a more clear way of asserting that it is the "what you have done" that will be the basis of eternal life.

I do not see how you are bending what Paul says beyond credulity.




He says eternal life is granted according to, yes, "what they have done".

You seem to say eternal life is granted according to the fact of their having faith.

Can you explain, please?

Romans 2:5-9
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Paul was talking to unsaved Jews, are unrepentant and reject the truth. They were judging the gentiles for things that they did themselves. He was telling them they would be judged just the same as the gentiles. The ones who persist are the believers that by faith do righteous works. Not works of merit but works in and of faith.

 

[Deborah13]

2 Corinth 5
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

We all will face God on the BEMA seat and our works will be judged both good and bad. But this is never spoke of as to salvation. Rewards will be given to those decided by their works.

quotes are from the NIV - using this translation - this is the one Drew was quoting from

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro:

Again, there were no commands given Abraham to act upon in Gen.15:1-6.

You're making one of two points here. I don't know which for sure. But if this is an answer to the question I asked of you I must now ask, "what happened to the boast of his works starting with his obedience to leave his homeland?"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. While I rarely invoke 2 Corinthians 5, I believe that it, too, demonstrates that Paul believes that final salvation will be based on "good works".

But how does this show that righteousness is credited to a person according to what they do, and not by believing in God's forgiveness?

 

[smaller]

I agree. While I rarely invoke 2 Corinthians 5, I believe that it, too, demonstrates that Paul believes that final salvation will be based on "good works".

That is obviously NOT the case. Good works will be an utter failure to these spoken to:

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


And one might even see that to cast out devils, to prophesy and even to do good works are done in conjunction with the Holy Spirit and heavenly gifts from above, from the Father of light.


Yet they STILL will hear these words.


Good works will avail the above exactly NADA.


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[BornAgain]

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10 (KJV)

 

[Webb]

Jethro--What do you mean by "boasts" and where?

 

[Drew]

Paul was talking to unsaved Jews, are unrepentant and reject the truth.

I agree.

They were judging the gentiles for things that they did themselves. He was telling them they would be judged just the same as the gentiles. The ones who persist are the believers that by faith do righteous works. Not works of merit but works in and of faith.

You appear to be evading the force of my argument.

Does Paul say that people will get eternal life according to their faith?

No. He says they will get eternal life according to what they have done.

I understand that this challenges your position. And I am not sure how you, or anyone can deal with this. When someone says:

"You will get X according to Y"

....this is as clear and unambigous a way as possible to say that the basis, the grounds, the criterion for getting X is indeed Y.

Paul tells us that people get eternal life according to what they have done.

Please address this text head on and explain to me how it reads as people get eternal life according to what they have believed.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree. While I rarely invoke 2 Corinthians 5, I believe that it, too, demonstrates that Paul believes that final salvation will be based on "good works".

Along with Rev 20:12,13 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro--What do you mean by "boasts" and where?

Assuming you're answering the question I asked you...

The 'righteousness by works' argument says Abraham was justified by his obedience up to Genesis 15 and is why God declares him righteous there in Genesis 15. The 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) argument says his declaration of righteousness was given to him because he believed what God told him about a promised son there in Genesis 15 (and so God declared him righteous as the account goes), which is why it is his obedience at the altar concerning the promised son that God then says 'now I know you fear God', and not concerning his obedience up to that point. Do you understand?

As you say, there is no work accomplished in conjunction with this newly revealed promise God made to Abraham there in Genesis 15...yet God declares him righteous anyway...based on his faith, not his work. For as you and Paul correctly observe he has no command to respond to with work at that time concerning the very specific promise that made him righteous. This is exactly the point Paul makes to show that a man is made righteous by believing in the Promise, not by the expected and obligatory work that faith in the promise produces.

 

[Webb]

Jethro--You didn't answer the question: When, where and how did Abraham "boast"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The boast of his works that you say secured righteousness for him occurred well before Genesis 15...yet God does not use those works to validate the faith that the account says he was credited righteousness for. It's that way because it is his faith in the promise of a son in Genesis 15 (all by itself without, as even you recognize, any performance of work) that any work accomplished would validate.

Don't play rope-a-dope with me here. You are the one making Abraham's works his boast of righteousness.

 

[Webb]

Jethro

You still didn't answer the question: When, where and how did Abraham "boast"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro

You still didn't answer the question: When, where and how did Abraham "boast"?

It's not his boast. It's the boast the 'works justification' argument assigns to him. It says the works Abraham performed prior to Genesis 15 are his boast of righteousness. It says those are the works upon which God credited righteousness to him.

I want to know, if that is true, why is Abraham not already validated as one who fears God by those works performed prior to the specific promise of Genesis 15? Instead, God validates his faith through the work that he did at the altar, after Genesis 15...the work directly connected to the specific promise made to him in Genesis 15. Paul shows us that he was declared righteous by the faith that he had before that faith did the work that validated that faith. IOW, Abraham's righteousness was granted apart from his work.

So, let's not forget. You're the one who pointed out there is no command to work given in connection with the promise of a son made in Genesis 15, and thus no work, yet God grants him a declaration of righteous for the faith he has regarding that promise. Exactly the point Paul makes in Romans to those who think people are credited righteousness by doing righteous work.

 

[rrowell]

It's not his boast. It's the boast the 'works justification' argument assigns to him. It says the works Abraham performed prior to Genesis 15 are his boast of righteousness. It says those are the works upon which God credited righteousness to him.

It was always because of his "obedience":

Genesis 12:1 (KJV)
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Had Abram not (obeyed = work)+"faith" he would not have been justified.

 

[Webb]

I certainly do not boast, nor do I know of any who understand the scripture as I do boast. I believe, Jethro, you have fostered another strawman.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was always because of his "obedience":

Genesis 12:1 (KJV)
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Had Abram not (obeyed = work)+"faith" he would not have been justified.

So all those who learn about the gospel promise and venture out of their homes to inquire about this gospel are saved right then and there? You're saying any faithful act connected with the gospel saves a person? Oh how I wish that were true.

I myself have a few years of 'faithful' seeking and searching before I actually surrendered myself to the grace of God. I didn't have righteousness credited to my account until a very specific moment of faith in my life--the moment I placed my trust in the Promised Son who would inherit the blessing on my behalf--Jesus Christ.

This is why I say 'works salvation' doesn't understand what it means to be saved. They don't understand that a person is credited righteousness by the grace of God given us through faith in the Promised Son, Jesus Christ, not by doing faithful things. A measure of faith got me out of bed one Sunday morning to go to church to learn about Jesus and the gospel. But I was hardly credited righteousness by doing that, but that is what you have happening to Abraham, crediting any and all faithful works to his account as righteousness. That is a complete miss when it comes to knowing the gospel truth. Only faith in the blood of Christ can credit righteousness, because only in the blood of Christ is unrighteousness removed and replaced with right standing with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I certainly do not boast, nor do I know of any who understand the scripture as I do boast. I believe, Jethro, you have fostered another strawman.

No, it's not a straw man. Just because you don't believe that thinking what you do makes you righteous before God doesn't constitute a boast doesn't make my suggestion that it is a boast not true.

 

[Webb]

Jethro--You completly misrepresent, hopefully not on purpose, as I have no desire to communicate with one who does. I do not now, nor have I ever believed or taught that one merits, earns (or any adjective you may think of) salvation, justification, or righteousness in his alien state. Further, I have to this day never known of any who understand the scriptures as I do believe as the strawman you set up.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

So all those who learn about the gospel promise and venture out of their homes to inquire about this gospel are saved right then and there? You're saying any faithful act connected with the gospel saves a person? Oh how I wish that were true.

I myself have a few years of 'faithful' seeking and searching before I actually surrendered myself to the grace of God. I didn't have righteousness credited to my account until a very specific moment of faith in my life--the moment I placed my trust in the Promised Son who would inherit the blessing on my behalf--Jesus Christ.

This is why I say 'works salvation' doesn't understand what it means to be saved. They don't understand that a person is credited righteousness by the grace of God given us through faith in the Promised Son, Jesus Christ, not by doing faithful things. A measure of faith got me out of bed one Sunday morning to go to church to learn about Jesus and the gospel. But I was hardly credited righteousness by doing that, but that is what you have happening to Abraham, crediting any and all faithful works to his account as righteousness. That is a complete miss when it comes to knowing the gospel truth. Only faith in the blood of Christ can credit righteousness, because only in the blood of Christ is unrighteousness removed and replaced with right standing with God.

Ugh, pardon me sir,
But, "It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." It is true that no person will be declared righteous by God based upon the obedience of the law given through Moses as it is. But you have a slight problem of failing to understanding that that there was a minor alteration of the law after Jesus was crucified and had ascended back to his Father. And it is that alteration of the law Paul is referring too in his statement I've quoted. Three of the supporting textual citations in regard to Paul's quote are, Heb. 7:12, Gal. 3:19 & Acts 7:53. Whereas the written code was put into effect by Moses reading it to the people after coming down from the mountain. The slight alteration, of much greater importance God made to the law after Jesus' was crucified, was put into effect by angles delivering it to the apostles according to the scriptures. At least according to the scriptures I have. Whereas you, sir, protest that there is "absolutely nothing I have to obey to be granted an escape from God's wrath" and this other fellow protests that it is commands, plural, that must be obeyed to be saved; perhaps this two path contrary approach just might be narrowed down to focusing on the gate itself.
For the gate into God's kingdom is a command that has been added to the law. The gentleman's burdensome faith of being required to obey commands to be saved has been greatly lightened to the faith of only obeying a command in regard to the Lord's crucifixion being the sin of murder caused by bloodshed. And you sir by a that same slight modification of the law will be allowed the grace to enter God's kingdom by the faith to obey this law which has been put into effect by angles. But if you two bone heads don't obey God by this law you will both pay hell for not obeying the Way the crucifixion of Jesus has perfected for an escape from that place. For it is the whole law you will offend if you refuse. His yoke is indeed easy and the burden of it is extremely light, but it is the law.

His Majesty's Royal Ambassador
Theodore A. Jones