The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham did believe in "the promised son" back in Gen.12. He had NO heir then, yet the promise was that "all families" would be blessed through him, he then left the Ur of Chaldees in obedience to what God said.

And so I ask again, "How does this prove that a man is made righteous by what he does and not just by the faith that motivates what he does?"

You're hammering a moot point, but it is true that the specifics that Abraham's faith rested on are not revealed until Genesis 15. And it is there that the Bible says his faith is credited as righteousness. Even Paul goes to this place in the life of Abraham to point out that a man is justified by faith in the promise apart from works.

It's amazing to me that some people can't tell the difference between believing something and doing something. It doesn't even matter that they are both called 'work' in the Bible. They are still different things. Calling them both 'work' does not make them one and the same thing. That is ridiculously distorted logic. Abraham had righteousness credited to him by what he believed, not by what he did. What he believed and what he did are two very distinct 'works'.

Both the account in Genesis and what Paul teaches in Romans say Abraham was justified by his faith. How is it that some people can just decide that he had righteousness credited to him by what he did as a result of his faith in the promise? The Bible does not say this. Where is this?

 

[Webb]

Jethro

Will you deny Gen.12:1-4 excludes the anticipation of an heir. If so kindly state why. If admitted the passage anticipates the necessity of an heir then you have no argument.

If you insist on ignoring the validity of the above and insist on reasoning only from the basis of Rom.4:3 (which is a quote from Gen.15:6) then I call attention to the obvious fact that Gen.15:1-6 contains NO command for Abraham to obey.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro

Will you deny Gen.12:1-4 excludes the anticipation of an heir. If so kindly state why. If admitted the passage anticipates the necessity of an heir then you have no argument.

I don't deny that at all. What you don't understand is at this point Abraham had no reason to not think this could not be fulfilled--either through his own child, or as he himself points out, through the head servant. The servant he already has. Legally speaking, when someone didn't have a son to pass the inheritance to the head slave got it. There's nothing miraculous in terms of the faith that justifies going on until Genesis 15 onward when the promise of the impossible comes to Abraham.


What you can't explain is if Abraham's life of faithful works up to Genesis 15 is the very faith he is credited righteousness for, why didn't God say right then and there in Genesis 15, "now I know you fear God" based on those faithful works done to date? No he waits until he completes work directly related to the specific promise he made in Genesis 15. Do you see what I'm driving at, or do I need to explain?

...I call attention to the obvious fact that Gen.15:1-6 contains NO command for Abraham to obey.

You said it, not me. The command to do something specific to be in covenant with God came after the promise and after he has righteousness credited to him (circumcision).

This makes it all the more obvious that Abraham was credited righteousness by his trust in God's word, not by the work he did even if that work was faithful work. This is the essence of Paul's argument.

Your problem handling the account of Abraham probably comes from an overly legalistic understanding of it. I'm guessing that instead of you seeing it for what it is, a type and illustration of the covenants and how a person comes to inherit the promises (through a promise, not through work), you see it as a literal way to inherit the promises.

Like Abraham,we all start out in some measure of faith seeking God and the promises. This hardly makes us saved by that faith. (Only a very specific faith saves.) Then we learn the specifics about the Promised Son. Then we try to inherit the blessing through our own efforts to fulfill the promise of a son who will inherit the blessing for us (Hagar and Ishmael). But it isn't until we stop working and put our faith in the Promised Son coming from our own bodies that God's promises are then fulfilled (Sarah and Isaac). This doesn't mean no works follow that defining moment of justifying faith as some misunderstand the 'faith apart from works' argument to mean. It means a man is made righteous through his trusting, not his working. A righteousness by faith that is then seen in what it does and proves the validity and the power to save of the righteous faith that produced it.

 

[heymikey80]

You can't twist the English to make your point, so you try to twist the Greek to make your point, and you cannot, the translators of our Bibles got it right.

Of course you can write your own bible if you want to...

I don't have to translate the Bible, I can read it. You cannot, and the translators are dictating your understanding.

Of course you are writing down what the Apostles didn't write.

 

[heymikey80]

Hearing is a work....

You don't get paid for listening to a command.

 

[heymikey80]

Heymikey80
So, according to your reasoning Abraham would have received the promise had he not obeyed by going?? And the people of Pentecost would have enjoyed remission of sins and the gift of the Spirit had they not repented and obeyed in baptism??

No. 2

And unless you go back through the thread you'll never know.

Works result from faith. Works are not a cause. Faith is an instrument. Faith is not a cause either. But faith is a precedent. God is the cause. Works result.

 

[heymikey80]

Again, the works Paul is eliminating in Rom 4:4,5 are works of merit the worker in verse 4 does in trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace.

The works Paul is eliminating are any works that could be understood to draw a wage. Because that's what Paul said.

 

[heymikey80]

First you do not get to define words as you so choose just so they will fit your theology.

You owe me an apology.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed (hypakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Does hypakouō simply mean a change of heart or attitude of just some mental assent or does it mean his working, his deed in obeying in going out?

It means Abraham listened with faith. Why can you not get that? "Will you not listen? Why won't you listen? God has spoken life to us; why will we not listen?"

How do you miss the "acoustics" of this word? "akouo" is "hear". "hupakouo" is listening submissively.

That's what it means.

Now there's a product sense of such a verb that implies action. But it has to be required to be applied. It's not required in your verse.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, heard (hupakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

[heymikey80]

So if Paul eliminated obedient works in Rom 4:5 that means Rom 10:9,10 must read one believes bacause he already has salvation, one confesses with the mouth for he is already righteous which neither verse says.

This is just inanity. What it means is that Rom 10:9,10 is a practical statement of observation, not a cause & effect statement.

So once again: you owe me another apology. You've again misrepresented my view, taking your view and attacking the opposite extreme.

People don't need vocal chords to be saved. They don't need to make noise in the atmosphere to be saved. They need to believe to be saved.

 

[rrowell]

I don't have to translate the Bible, I can read it. You cannot, and the translators are dictating your understanding.

Of course you are writing down what the Apostles didn't write.

Here is what the apostles wrote: (you said you can read it, I say you can't so Ill help you out)

Hebrews 11:8 (Stephanus)
8 πιστει καλουμενος αβρααμ<--(that's Abraham) υπηκουσεν <--(That's Obeyed) εξελθειν εις τον τοπον ον ημελλεν λαμβανειν εις κληρονομιαν και εξηλθεν μη επισταμενος που ερχεται

Hebrews 11:8 (Wescott-Hort)
8 πιστει καλουμενος αβρααμ<--(that's Abraham) υπηκουσεν <--(That's Obeyed) εξελθειν εις τοπον ον ημελλεν λαμβανειν εις κληρονομιαν και εξηλθεν μη επισταμενος που ερχεται

the root is agreeably ακουω (hear)

but you cannot disregard the rest of the Greek in front of (preposition υπο) and endings that put the WORD in context....

even the Lemma (least inflected form): υπακουω even in this form it's best (or a better) single word interlinear translation is (obey)

even the Lexicons agree with the translators:

ὑπα^κού-ω , fut.
A. “-ακούσομαι” LXX Ge.41.40 (v. sub fin.); later “-ακούσω” Mim.Oxy.413.222:
I. hearken, give ear, “θεοὶ δ᾽ ὑπὸ πάντες ἄκουον” Il.8.4; “ὁ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐμμαπέως ὑπάκουσε” Od.14.485, cf. h.Ven.180: c. gen., “ὄττις . . πλάσιον ἆδυ φωνείσας ὐπακούει” Sapph.2.4; “ὑμῶν” Ar.V.318 (lyr.); “τῆς κρίσεως” Aeschin.3.56 (s.v.l.).
2. answer (by voice or act) when called, ἢ ἐξελθέμεναι “ἢ ἔνδοθεν αἶψ᾽ ὑπακοῦσαι” Od.4.283, cf. 10.83, E.Alc.400 (lyr.), Ar.V. 273 (lyr.), Theoc.13.59: in Prose, “ὁ κῆρυξ ἐκήρυττε τίς τὴν ἱκετηρίαν καταθείη, καὶ οὐδεὶς ὑπήκουεν” And.1.112; “τῷ παιδίῳ” Ar.Lys.878, cf. Nu.360 (anap.), X.Ages.3.4, Aeschin.1.49, D.19.266.
b. in a dialogue, answer when questioned, σοι Pl.Sph.217d; “τοῖς λόγοις” Id.Lg.898c.
3. listen to, heed, regard, c. gen. rei, Id.Tht.162d, X. Cyr.8.1.20; “ὑ. νόμων” Pl.Lg.708d; ὑ. διαίτῃ submit to a regimen, Id.R.459c; “λόγῳ” Arist.Pol.1333a18; ὑ. τῷ ξυμφόρῳ τινός comply with his interest, Th.5.98; δείπνῳ ὑ. accept an invitation to dinner, Ath. 6.247d: abs., give way, submit, comply, Hdt.3.148, 4.119, Pl.Prt. 325a, PCair.Zen.367.15 (iii B.C.): with a neut. Pron., μάλα γε τοῦτο, Xὑπήκουσενin this matter he obeyed.Cyr.2.2.3;“οὐδὲν τούτων ὑπήκουον” Th.1.29, cf. 139, 140, etc.; ὑ. τινός τι or τινί τι, obey one in a thing, ib.26, Pl.Lg.774b.



So either you know Greek better than the lexicons, better than all the below translators or your flat out twisting scripture.

Hebrews 11:8 (KJV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:8 (NIV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ASV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:8 (CEV)
8 Abraham had faith and obeyed God. He was told to go to the land that God had said would be his, and he left for a country he had never seen.

Hebrews 11:8 (Darby)
8 By faith Abraham, being called, obeyed to go out into the place which he was to receive for an inheritance, and went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ESV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (GW)
8 Faith led Abraham to obey when God called him to go to a place that he would receive as an inheritance. Abraham left his own country without knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (HCSB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ICB)
8 It was by faith Abraham obeyed God's call to go to another place that God promised to give him. He left his own country, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (ISV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he didn't know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NASB77)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NASB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NCV)
8 It was by faith Abraham obeyed God’s call to go to another place God promised to give him. He left his own country, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (NKJV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NLT)
8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NRSV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; and he set out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (RSV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (TLB)
8 Abraham trusted God, and when God told him to leave home and go far away to another land that he promised to give him, Abraham obeyed. Away he went, not even knowing where he was going.

 

[rrowell]

You don't get paid for listening to a command.

Tell that to a soldier, and besides who said anything about getting paid or earning "anything"?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is just inanity. What it means is that Rom 10:9,10 is a practical statement of observation, not a cause & effect statement.

So once again: you owe me another apology. You've again misrepresented my view, taking your view and attacking the opposite extreme.

People don't need vocal chords to be saved. They don't need to make noise in the atmosphere to be saved. They need to believe to be saved.

Rom 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

In the context of Rom 10, Paul is lamenting over the fact his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, were lost Rom 10:1

In Rom 10:3a Paul says why they are lost "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,..."

For the Jews to be saved Paul said in Rom 10:3b the Jews must "submit unto the righteousness of God" that is obey God's commands. What the Jews would have to do to submit to God's righteousness is to believe in their heart and confess with the mouth..."For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." So it certainly is a cause (believe and confess) and effect (unto righteousness/salvation), but as Paul said of the Jews they have not all obeyed the gospel by believing and confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:16 And Paul did say to believe AND confess with the conjuntion "and" making confession just as necessary as believing.



If Abraham had not obeyed by leaving his land home and kindred would he still be saved, had not obeyed by offereing Isaac would he still be saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You owe me an apology.

It means Abraham listened with faith. Why can you not get that? "Will you not listen? Why won't you listen? God has spoken life to us; why will we not listen?"

How do you miss the "acoustics" of this word? "akouo" is "hear". "hupakouo" is listening submissively.

That's what it means.

Now there's a product sense of such a verb that implies action. But it has to be required to be applied. It's not required in your verse.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, heard (hupakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed (hypakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went."


How does this verse say Abraham obeyed? by going out not by just some mental assent of the mind.

Abraham was "called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance". Again, how did he obey this call to go out?

By going out

or

by not going out but just sat down and thought about going out?

Obeyed is active voice with the subject Abraham dong the acton of going out.

 

[Drew]

Eternal life is based on a FAITH that persists in doing good.

With all respect, how is this simply a denial of what Paul actually writes? Does he write that "Eternal life is based on a FAITH that persists in doing good" in the following?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Frankly, I cannot think of a more clear way of asserting that it is the "what you have done" that will be the basis of eternal life.

I do not see how you are bending what Paul says beyond credulity.

He says eternal life is granted according to, yes, "what they have done".

You seem to say eternal life is granted according to the fact of their having faith.

Can you explain, please?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The works Paul is eliminating are any works that could be understood to draw a wage. Because that's what Paul said.

Obedience to God does not draw a wage.

Again in the context in Rom 4:4 Paul describes the worker as one who's reward is of debt and not of grace. The only way your reward could be of debt and not grace is if you could keep God's law perfectly, ie, if you were perfectly sinless. If you were perfectly sinless then you would not be in need of grace so your reward would be of debt, something owed you.

Abraham was not one who worked to keep God's law perfectly whereby he would be perfectly sinless for Abraham sinned. So instead of trying to keep God's law perfectly Abraham believed in God who justifies the sinner. Abraham obediently believed and his belief did not earn him his justification. It is impossible for obedience to earn justificaton for the only way it could be earned is by perfect law keeping.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Frankly, I cannot think of a more clear way of asserting that it is the "what you have done" that will be the basis of eternal life.

Also 2 Cor 5:9,10 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath DONE, whether [it be] good or bad."

Why did Paul labour? To be accepted of the Lord.

 

[Drew]

10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation

Note: This text is entirely consistent with this position, which I believe to be correct:

1. Eternal life is granted, as per Romans 2:6-7 based on how you have lived. I have never read any plausible explanation for Romans 2:6-7 that is consistent with the denial that 'good works' are needed for salvation. Most explanations really boil down to "Paul doesn't mean what he is saying";

2. When a person, earlier on in their life and through faith alone accepts Jesus, that person is given the Spirit. The Spirit then transforms that person into a "good works produing person" (Romans 8);

3. We come full circle: at the Romans 2 judgdment, that person will indeed be found to have demonstrated saving good works.

Nothing in Romans 10 is inconsistent with this.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hearing is a work....

Hear in Jn 10:27 "The sheep “hear†the Shepherd’s voice. “Hear†is from akouo, which signifies to listen. The word is found 58 times in John’s Gospel, and, in this context, as with many others, it denotes an obedient listening to Jesus (see J.H. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 23)."

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/622-can-a-sheep-stray-from-the-fold


Lk 6:46-48 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."



Just audibly hearing or just mentally acknowleging what Jesus said is not enough, it takes DOING what He said.

 

[Drew]

Also 2 Cor 5:9,10 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath DONE, whether [it be] good or bad."

Why did Paul labour? To be accepted of the Lord.

I agree. While I rarely invoke 2 Corinthians 5, I believe that it, too, demonstrates that Paul believes that final salvation will be based on "good works".

 

[Webb]

Jethro:

Again, there were no commands given Abraham to act upon in Gen.15:1-6.