Total depravity?

[crossnote]

I'm not sure what word you are using when you only use the Greek font. Is it Strongs G1670 - ἑλκύω, ἕλκω

Here is an example of how the ESV uses that word:
Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Same thing with the NIV
6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?

New American Standard
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

I remember R. C. Sproul talking one time about a guy who showed where this word was used for drawing water out of a well. He said "Well Dr. Sproul, have you ever dragged water out of a well?" Sproul said "I admit that I have never dragged water out of a well, but how do you get water out of a well"? Do you stand at the top and woo the water out? Do you stand at the top and entice the water out? No, you have to force the water out with a bucket and a rope pulling it up against gravity.

1670. ἕλκύω helkúō and ἕλκω hélkō; fut. helkúsō, aor. heílkusa. To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō (G4951). See Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; Rev. 12:4. To drag, although it may be just implied (Acts 16:19, of persons, to drag, force before magistrates; 21:30, "out of the temple"; James 2:6). Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (John 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come). It is the drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indicating the drawing of the net while súrō (John 21:8) is merely dragging. To draw a sword (John 18:10). See Sept.: 2 Sam. 22:17; Ps. 10:9; Jer. 38:13.

ἄγω fut. ἄξω; 2aor. ἤγαγον; 1aor. pass. ἤχθην; 1fut. pass. ἀχθήσομαι; *lead, bring; transitive, accusative object or object understood from context, goal of motion often as prepositional phrase; (1) as conducting or accompanying a person or animal bring or take (1TH 4.14); in repetition of ἀνάγω (q.v.) passive with the ἀν- idiomatically omitted set sail (AC 28.11RP); figuratively, of the influence of God’s Spirit or other supernatural agent lead, guide (RO 8.14); with abstract object (AC 13.23 BYZ); (2) as a legal technical term implying use of force take away, arrest, take into custody (MK 13.11); with accusative object and ἐπί to indicate the authority to which one is led bring for trial (LU 23.1)

In any case they are two different words.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you sure? ἄγω -led
ἑλκύω / ἕλκω-draw

Besides, I believe Jn 6:44 is speaking of an unregenerate person whereas Rom 8:14 is speaking of the regenerate. (a difference of wills and affections.

Yes Im sure. The word led is the greek word ἄγω and means:

1. to lead,
   1. to lead, guide, direct
   2. to lead through, conduct to: to something
   3. to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

The word draw is the greek word helkō and means:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So basically the same.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Abraham, an idolater was called as an idolater. What were the conditions that God chose him?

Or Jacob over Esau?

Romans 9:11-13 KJV
[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) [12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. [13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

But they weren’t elected for salvation. They elected to be the line from which Jesus would come or not.

 

[brightfame52]

But they weren’t elected for salvation. They elected to be the line from which Jesus would come or not.

Thats the only thing the purpose of election is in regards to, Salvation !

 

[JLB]

Thats the only thing the purpose of election is in regards to, Salvation !

False.

Election refers to the lineage from which the Messiah came.

Jews were the people whom the Lord chose to bring forth the Messiah.

Paul uses the term “the elect” to refer to the Jews.

Paul’s heart was for his countrymen, the Jews to be saved like the Gentiles were being saved through his ministry.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


As we see plainly, “elect” does not mean “automatically“ and “irreversibly” saved.


Election refers to purpose; elected or chosen for purpose.


The main purpose for the Jews was to be the lineage through which the Messiah came.


That’s why the Jews are called “God’s chosen people“.


I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus…





JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thats the only thing the purpose of election is in regards to, Salvation !

Huh? It says they were chosen to be the line biologically or not. That’s it. David was chosen to be King. God has different callings for different people at different times. That’s pretty obvious.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

False.

Election refers to the lineage from which the Messiah came.

Jews were the people whom the Lord chose to bring forth the Messiah.

Paul uses the term “the elect” to refer to the Jews.

Paul’s heart was for his countrymen, the Jews to be saved like the Gentiles were being saved through his ministry.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


As we see plainly, “elect” does not mean “automatically“ and “irreversibly” saved.


Election refers to purpose; elected or chosen for purpose.


The main purpose for the Jews was to be the lineage through which the Messiah came.


That’s why the Jews are called “God’s chosen people“.


I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus…





JLB

Another difficulty for them is that some angels are called the “elect angels.” So were they also so chosen before they were created?? And God literally made defective angels not so chosen?

 

[brightfame52]

False.

Election refers to the lineage from which the Messiah came.

Jews were the people whom the Lord chose to bring forth the Messiah.

Paul uses the term “the elect” to refer to the Jews.

Paul’s heart was for his countrymen, the Jews to be saved like the Gentiles were being saved through his ministry.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


As we see plainly, “elect” does not mean “automatically“ and “irreversibly” saved.


Election refers to purpose; elected or chosen for purpose.


The main purpose for the Jews was to be the lineage through which the Messiah came.


That’s why the Jews are called “God’s chosen people“.


I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus…





JLB

No, its not false.

 

[brightfame52]

Huh? It says they were chosen to be the line biologically or not. That’s it. David was chosen to be King. God has different callings for different people at different times. That’s pretty obvious.

Um, in Rom 9 , the purpose of election is about Salvation. Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Um, in Rom 9 , the purpose of election is about Salvation. Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Where is the word salvation in that?

 

[brightfame52]

Where is the word salvation in that?

It doesnt have to be, the entire book is about Salvation, the Gospel Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Its the Gospel of God Rom 1:1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It doesnt have to be, the entire book is about Salvation, the Gospel Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Its the Gospel of God Rom 1:1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

This is another thing I noticed about the Calvinists at church is the only thing they read in the Bible is salvation. That’s it. You seem to see salvation everywhere too.

 

[brightfame52]

This is another thing I noticed about the Calvinists at church is the only thing they read in the Bible is salvation. That’s it. You seem to see salvation everywhere too.

The entire bible is centered in and foundationed upon Salvation in and through Jesus Christ, from Gen to Rev, !

 

[Whatever]

This is another thing I noticed about the Calvinists at church is the only thing they read in the Bible is salvation. That’s it.

No, that can't be true. We must also read predestination.

 

[crossnote]

But they weren’t elected for salvation. They elected to be the line from which Jesus would come or not.

So we are elected but Abraham wasn't (necessarily) even though we are children of Abraham?

Ephesians 1:5 (KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Galatians 3:7 (KJV) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Edward]

No, that can't be true. We must also read predestination.

Predesination or predetermination?

God has predestined us all, but do we receive it? If we cooperate with the Lord and obey Him then we are able to step into our presdestination.

If we do not cooperate with God or obey Him, then...there's likely to be a different outcome! Pretty basic.

 

[brightfame52]

edward

God has predestined us all, but do we receive it?

wayward statement.

 

[Edward]

edward



wayward statement.

WHat does that even mean?

(I think I broke him lol)

 

[crossnote]

God has predestined us all, but do we receive it? If we cooperate with the Lord and obey Him then we are able to step into our presdestination.

"Step into our predestination"? Now I have heard it all.
Can you please show me where you find that one? Is it also possible to 'step out' once you 'stepped in'? , or is it non negotiable?

 

[brightfame52]

WHat does that even mean?

(I think I broke him lol)

Get your dictionary out friend.