Total depravity?

[Dorothy Mae]

No, that can't be true. We must also read predestination.

Our church has calvinists and they are fairly intolerant of other views, but those are only individuals, not the pastor or elders. So they cannot openly insist on predestined for which eternity before birth theology. So all that’s left is salvation. In any case, it’s clear that Jacob was chosen to be the Messianic line but all B reads is “salvation.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So we are elected but Abraham wasn't (necessarily) even though we are children of Abraham?

Ephesians 1:5 (KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Galatians 3:7 (KJV) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

“The eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.”

“For such worshippers the Father seeks.”

That is what God is doing…looking at living people and their choices. He did not predetermine before birth who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, not even Abraham. Those who elect Him, are predetermined to become children of God conformed to the image of Jesus.

 

[crossnote]

“For such worshippers the Father seeks.”

In context that is speaking of believers, otherwise when it comes to non believers we have,,,

there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(Rom 3:11)

Or should you say the Bible contradicts itself?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In context that is speaking of believers, otherwise when it comes to non believers we have,,,

there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(Rom 3:11)

Or should you say the Bible contradicts itself?

I posted a long list of verses which they say So and so “sought the Lord.” This happened a lot in the Bible. Numerous people sought the Lord over those millennia. It sometimes gives names.

Now what you’ve done is take this out of context and say it describes all men everywhere every generation. But let’s look at the context of those words.

None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”

Does this describe the non-christian’s in your neighborhood. Are their feet swift to run to kill people? Are they all constantly cursing and are bitter? Are they worthless and lie all the time? Is peace unknown to them?

Test your position in real life and ask if this describes everyone you know who isn’t a christian. If not, then you cannot in intellectual honesty extract those words you like from the rest and say ONLY those words describe all mankind. I do know what Paul was meaning but it’s not close to the Calvinist position.

You know, it’s a bit unfair when I take on Calvinists so I seldom do on the whole. Many many years ago I was debating a very nice calvinist on email and a site. He was a well trained retired pastor. When he would give me such scriptures, always the same selected few, I would ask God what I should do in response. God always gave me answers in the form of “read the whole chapter.” On occasion He would open my mind to understanding the Calvinist position on those words as opposed to what the author meant. So I have a resource in discussion you don’t have. So I understand your position, another advantage.

You could have that same advantage though. If you did, the logic would be like Jesus’ answers, without flaw. B claims God gave him his theology but it’s very obvious from character and lack of logic, He didn’t.

 

[Edward]

Get your dictionary out friend.

So in other words,no. I thought you would too. My bad. I know what the word means. Too subtle for you I guess.

 

[brightfame52]

So in other words,no. I thought you would too. My bad. I know what the word means. Too subtle for you I guess.

I know what the word meant when I posted it. Now its up to you to look it up if you dont know what it means, thats what I do when someone presents words to me Im not sure of. It only takes a moment.

 

[brightfame52]

Our church has calvinists and they are fairly intolerant of other views, but those are only individuals, not the pastor or elders. So they cannot openly insist on predestined for which eternity before birth theology. So all that’s left is salvation. In any case, it’s clear that Jacob was chosen to be the Messianic line but all B reads is “salvation.”

The messianic line is about Salvation. The Gentile Women knew that Jn 4:7-25

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The people of that town confirmed Vs 42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ/Messiah, the Saviour of the world.

The Line of Jacob is the Salvation line. Mal 3:6


For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The messianic line is about Salvation. The Gentile Women knew that Jn 4:7-25

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The people of that town confirmed Vs 42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ/Messiah, the Saviour of the world.

The Line of Jacob is the Salvation line. Mal 3:6


For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

No, the goal of God is we love Him and love our neighbor. Saved and going to heaven is not the goal.

 

[crossnote]

Does this describe the non-christian’s in your neighborhood.

yes

Are their feet swift to run to kill people?

In their hearts, yes

Are they worthless and lie all the time?

Without/denying Christ they are already condemned

Is peace unknown to them?

It's known only when circumstances go their way.

Test your position in real life and ask if this describes everyone you know who isn’t a christian. If not, then you cannot in intellectual honesty extract those words you like from the rest and say ONLY those words describe all mankind. I do know what Paul was meaning but it’s not close to the Calvinist position.

This is true of many Christians as well, besides I don't test God's Word by my neighbor's behavior.

You know, it’s a bit unfair when I take on Calvinists so I seldom do on the whole. Many many years ago I was debating a very nice calvinist on email and a site. He was a well trained retired pastor. When he would give me such scriptures, always the same selected few, I would ask God what I should do in response. God always gave me answers in the form of “read the whole chapter.” On occasion He would open my mind to understanding the Calvinist position on those words as opposed to what the author meant. So I have a resource in discussion you don’t have. So I understand your position, another advantage.

That's very condescending of you. The passage I gave you, has a context...Romans 1:18 to the passage in Romans 3.

 

[Free]

False.

Election refers to the lineage from which the Messiah came.

Jews were the people whom the Lord chose to bring forth the Messiah.

Paul uses the term “the elect” to refer to the Jews.

Paul’s heart was for his countrymen, the Jews to be saved like the Gentiles were being saved through his ministry.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


As we see plainly, “elect” does not mean “automatically“ and “irreversibly” saved.


Election refers to purpose; elected or chosen for purpose.


The main purpose for the Jews was to be the lineage through which the Messiah came.


That’s why the Jews are called “God’s chosen people“.


I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus…





JLB

"Elect" is used most often of the Jews, but not exclusively:

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (ESV)

Notice that Paul is speaking of all believers, referring to them as "God's elect." 2 Tim 2:10 also most likely refers to all believers. The elect are those whom God has chosen, predestined, to be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

No, the goal of God is we love Him and love our neighbor. Saved and going to heaven is not the goal.

The whole bible from gen -rev is about Salvation through Christ. Lk 24:44-46

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

yes

In their hearts, yes

Without/denying Christ they are already condemned


It's known only when circumstances go their way.

This is true of many Christians as well, besides I don't test God's Word by my neighbor's behavior.

That's very condescending of you. The passage I gave you, has a context...Romans 1:18 to the passage in Romans 3.

Crossnote, those verses in Romans were taken from the OT describing a time when Israelies were like that. They were as bad as other evil people groups at that point in time. It was never describing all men everywhere, which you cannot bring yourself to see. Calvinism insists it describes everyone but surely no Calvinist calls his children “foul mouthed, bitter, murderers” if they’re not believers. They don’t call others that either. That you insist this actually describes atheists shows the lack of truth in the theology.

One verse is NOT a context. I know you don’t budge but anyone considering Calvinism ought to test whether their statements about atheists truthfully describe the atheists you know (cursing murderers.) If that which can be tested is untrue, it’s very likely that which cannot be tested is equally untrue.

“The unexamined faith is not worth having.”

 

[Whatever]

God has predestined us all, but do we receive it?

Really? He has pre-destined us all to salvation?

1Pe 2:8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Doesn't sound like all people are destined for the same thing.

Again for the 1,00th time:
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isa 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

If the real God of the Bible had predestined every single human being for salvation, then He would do it, bring it to pass, accomplish all His purpose.

What actually comes to pass?
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands . . .

The salvation of a multitude of people from or out of every nation, tribe etc. That was what God planned from the beginning, and he did it, brought it to pass and accomplished all His purpose.

Say anything contrary, and you believe in a different god.

 

[Whatever]

Our church has calvinists and they are fairly intolerant of other views

Well, the Church I am going to is as anti-Calvinist as you can get. I have even been told that it is heresy.

Actually that is only the educated pastor. All the rest, even the elders don't know the Bible from a hole in the ground. They may have heard the word Calvinist, but have no idea what it is.

 

[jasonc]

I guess it's rare that we should lock doors ,pack heat,worry as I have of being robbed,stabbed.

Often it's not the strangers ,but your own family or friends who do you in.my system raped by her bf,family trusted friend .

The military and any cop will say trust no one .

 

[brightfame52]

dorthym

Crossnote, those verses in Romans were taken from the OT describing a time when Israelies were like that.

Not only jews, but all mankind, and thats what Paul means as well

Ps 14

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

The children of men encompasses all people not just jews !

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, those verses in Romans were taken from the OT describing a time when Israelies were like that. They were as bad as other evil people groups at that point in time. It was never describing all men everywhere, which you cannot bring yourself to see. Calvinism insists it describes everyone but surely no Calvinist calls his children “foul mouthed, bitter, murderers” if they’re not believers. They don’t call others that either. That you insist this actually describes atheists shows the lack of truth in the theology.

You keep bringing 'Calvinism' into the discussion, all I am doing is referring to Scripture. I don't believe I have defended Calvinism by name. You seem to have an anti-Calvinist bent.

Ok, in Romans 2, Paul had already covered the Jews and the Gentiles failing at the written law (Moses) and the law of the conscience (Gentiles). He concludes both groups are under sin and falling short of God's glory (Rom 3).
Paul's point is that ALL have broken God's moral law and are in need of a Savior, whether found in the O.T. or not; in terms of morality the O.T. is universal and is thus quoted by Paul in Rom 3, applicable to both groups.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, the Church I am going to is as anti-Calvinist as you can get. I have even been told that it is heresy.

Actually that is only the educated pastor. All the rest, even the elders don't know the Bible from a hole in the ground. They may have heard the word Calvinist, but have no idea what it is.

There’s lots of ignorance, true. Why do you go there?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dorthym


Not only jews, but all mankind, and thats what Paul means as well

Ps 14

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

The children of men encompasses all people not just jews !

But Paul wrote particularly about the Jews in those chapters. He said so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You keep bringing 'Calvinism' into the discussion, all I am doing is referring to Scripture.

The theology expressed is Calvinism. We are in the Calvinism section.Yet you accuse me of inventing (for no reason) that the discussion is about Calvinism. And then accuse me of some untoward motive for doing so. This leap into the irrational combined with a person attack shows you cannot refute my protests regarding your theology.

I don't believe I have defended Calvinism by name. You seem to have an anti-Calvinist bent.

As above, we are in the Calvin discussion area.

Ok, in Romans 2, Paul had already covered the Jews and the Gentiles failing at the written law (Moses) and the law of the conscience (Gentiles). He concludes both groups are under sin and falling short of God's glory (Rom 3).
Paul's point is that ALL have broken God's moral law and are in need of a Savior, whether found in the O.T. or not; in terms of morality the O.T. is universal and is thus quoted by Paul in Rom 3, applicable to both groups.

He didn’t stop talking about the Jews. He didn’t make chapter divisions and so move on to a new topic.

The problem with this “all have sinned” emphasis is it’s robbed the Gospel of convicting hearers of THEIR sins and made it generic. This is what we see in the NT preaching. No one preached “all have sinned and you too” but they preached the truth and conviction fell for real individual sins. So people repented off real sins and received real forgiveness.