WHY DO WE SIN?

[GodsGrace]

Sin is "transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4. A law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' Leviticus 19:18.

But let's be clear. Some things in the law are simply no longer forbidden. For example, eating the blood of the sacrifice. In fact, we are commanded to eat the blood of the sacrifice in this New Covenant. We have no life of the Sacrifice in us if we don't. Under law it is forbidden to take the life of the sacrifice into the worshipper. An illustration for us that law in no way provides life to the worshipper. Only in the New Covenant of grace can that happen.

Nice!

 

[jaybo]

You are dealing with spiritual realities here, not just "symbols." There are real transactions going on at the spiritual (invisible) level. No - you do not bury a body before it is dead.

So all baptisms are actual burials of dead people? When I was baptized, I was quite alive. It is obviously symbolic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it the sin nature?
Are we born with it?

I believe we are.
I believe this is what makes us sin, even after being born again.

Born again Christians obey the dictates of sin, not because they have to (that reason was eradicated at the cross), but out of fear and intimidation, ignorance, lack of vigilance, lack of experience dealing with temptation, and sometimes just plain old foolishness. I want to say which one is the biggest reason, but I can't decide between fear, and ignorance. Probably ignorance. The Christian life is all about growing up through knowledge to maturity and into the image of Christ. It's a lifelong education.

Spiritually speaking, I feel like I've been taking 9th grade Geometry over and over again. Living out the mature fruit of love in practice has been a very difficult thing to remember and do. Just when I think I got it down, I realize I don't. And so back to the text book and the teacher who's teaching it I go.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

our flesh loves sin

...but my inmost parts HATE it. Ultimately, as a born again person I just can't live in sin! That's because I'm changed inside. When I sin I regret it and hate myself for it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

P.S.
Would you agree with me that the flesh is also at times called our sinful nature?

...but is it called that correctly? I say, 'no'. The NIV translators, who apparently are the ones who started calling the flesh the sin nature, seem to realize that now.

 

[WIP]

Pretty basic question.

Jesus told a couple of persons to go and sin no more.

Why do we sin?
What is it within us that makes us obey the evil one?

Is it the sin nature?
Are we born with it?

I believe we are.
I believe this is what makes us sin, even after being born again.

I believe it is because we have a desire to be our own god.

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.
Genesis 3:6 NKJV

God is great! What is better than to be great like Him? The problem is we not only want to be like Him, we want to be Him. We want to cut the umbilical cord so-to-speak and control our own lives rather than depending on Him.

Most children do the same thing with regard to their parents. At first we are fully dependent on our parents for everything. As we grow and mature we become more and more independent and eventually many, if not most, actually go through a rebellious stage at some point along the way. We don't want to be dependent on our parents anymore but want to be independent and in control of our own lives and it continues until our death. When we are old and no longer able to take proper care of ourselves and our children then try to help us, we stubbornly rebel against them.

 

[D-D-W]

Actually, they happen at the same time.
Rom 6:3..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

Into being the operative word here, at least as I understand your argument. The Greek eis (Strongs G1519) is used over a thousand times in the NT text and has a variety of meanings and usages. So taking the usage here to mean that baptism causes death is very weak. It applies equally well that death and burial of a dead body happen in rapid succession. Even today, Jews try to bury their dead within 24 hours.

 

[D-D-W]

There are legal fathers and biological fathers and they are not the same thing although both fathers. David was raised in Jesse's household although the suspicion was that his mother had committed adultery and hence they despised him which explains what they did. Being the youngest is not sufficient reason to despise a brother. Being illegitimate was and that was why David wrote that. He was raised somewhat of a rejected man but God did not reject him. In the Psalm he was expressing this lament, that he was illegitimate. That is why he wrote that he was conceived when his mother sinned not that he was a sinful fetus.

You are taking that entirely the wrong way. If there was suspicion of David's mother committing adultery there would be some other reference to it. Psalm 51 is ONLY talking about being born in a fallen world as a fallen creature.

 

[D-D-W]

I suspect we see the definition of the word differently. To me is it another word for sin and I know scriptures where it is used same as "sin" is used.

That is how I saw it too until about 2000 or 2001. I then sat under the tutelage of a counseling pastor who showed me the difference between sin, transgression and iniquity.

Doing my own study of the word iniquity, I found out that the majority of places it is mentioned, parents and ancestors are also mentioned in the same context. So it bears out.

So I changed my definition.

 

[loveendures]

Pretty basic question.

Jesus told a couple of persons to go and sin no more.

Why do we sin?
What is it within us that makes us obey the evil one?

Is it the sin nature?
Are we born with it?

I believe we are.
I believe this is what makes us sin, even after being born again.

I can respond to you using Neuroscience. We all have lower or reptilian brain something we share with animals. This is a reactive brain, all sins are part of reactions. As human beings we do have thinking and contemplating upper brain aka neocortex. This is a responsive brain and there is a constant battle between these two brains.. we become more human beings as we use more of neocortex. You are deeply loved.

 

[D-D-W]

No, that's not better. We must leave it the way the Bible orders it.

1 John 3:4
Everyone committing sin also commits lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. BSB
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. KJV

You change the meaning if you switch it to 'transgression of the law is sin' because there are instances in this New Covenant where transgression of the law is not sin anymore.

"Whatsoever is not from faith is sin." Rom 14.23b
That does not fit with either of the examples you quote. And yet Paul called it sin. It can even apply to obeying a NT command. In Timothy Paul commands people to pray with hands raised. But many groups have taught it is sinful to do so since that is what the pentecostals do. It could also apply to any other teaching, like a mode of baptism. So if you believe that teaching, you sin if you raise your hands by not doing it in faith, and you sin if you do NOT raise your hands because you are violating a biblical command.

Tell me how that fits your definition?

 

[D-D-W]

Ephesians 5:28-29
29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church.

So - no one ever committed suicide? Or wanted to but did not carry it out?
How about those who intentionally cut themselves, or are bulimic? Do they not exist?

Please square those realities with what you are trying to say with that verse.

 

[D-D-W]

So all baptisms are actual burials of dead people?

Yes.

When I was baptized, I was quite alive. It is obviously symbolic.

Not symbolic. Either you were dead, or your baptism was just getting wet for no reason.

Paul was not lying or speaking symbolically when he wrote this:

Colossians 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So - no one ever committed suicide? Or wanted to but did not carry it out?
How about those who intentionally cut themselves, or are bulimic? Do they not exist?

Please square those realities with what you are trying to say with that verse.

Correct me if I'm wrong about what you're driving at, but it sounds like you're saying 'love your neighbor as yourself' falls short as a guide to not sinning because of cases like when you want to kill yourself. I suggest to you that wanting to kill yourself is not you loving yourself that it should somehow be taken into consideration when it comes to loving your neighbor as yourself.

 

[jaybo]

Into being the operative word here, at least as I understand your argument. The Greek eis (Strongs G1519) is used over a thousand times in the NT text and has a variety of meanings and usages. So taking the usage here to mean that baptism causes death is very weak. It applies equally well that death and burial of a dead body happen in rapid succession. Even today, Jews try to bury their dead within 24 hours.

As Festus said to Paul, “Your great learning is driving you insane.” Of course baptism doesn't cause death. If that was the case then every person who was baptized would be dead.

Baptism is a symbolic burial of a person. The "old man" is declared "dead" and the "new man" is resurrected into their new life in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Whatsoever is not from faith is sin." Rom 14.23b
That does not fit with either of the examples you quote.

Actually, if you read the chapter, the freedom to indulge disputable things is to be handled in light of whether or not it causes your brother to stumble or not, because causing them to stumble by the exercise of your freedom is not loving.

Romans 14:15
15If your brother is distressed by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother, for whom Christ died.

So the matter of doing things that you may or may not have the faith to do is most certainly a matter of being careful to love others who may stumble themselves when they see you doing something that for them in their conscience is sin.

 

[jaybo]

Yes.

Not symbolic. Either you were dead, or your baptism was just getting wet for no reason.

Paul was not lying or speaking symbolically when he wrote this:

Colossians 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

How could I possibly have been dead??? I was very much alive when I was baptized, as was everyone else. It was clearly symbolic! And quite obviously I am not dead, since I am sitting at my keyboard typing this.

If you don't understand the difference between actual, physical death and spiritual death you are in serious trouble. When Paul wrote that to the Colossians, don't you think they were alive? I mean, really!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It can even apply to obeying a NT command. In Timothy Paul commands people to pray with hands raised. But many groups have taught it is sinful to do so since that is what the pentecostals do. It could also apply to any other teaching, like a mode of baptism. So if you believe that teaching, you sin if you raise your hands by not doing it in faith, and you sin if you do NOT raise your hands because you are violating a biblical command.

Tell me how that fits your definition?

These are stupid, meaningless contentions. But, nonetheless, we are to do what prevents a weaker brother from stumbling, causing them to do what they in their mind consider to be sin, because that would be unloving (Romans 14:15). Love being the important matter here, not whether or not you raise your hands, or what mode of baptism you use. Love is the supreme factor here and in all matters of what is sin and what is not. Only about one out of a hundred Christians will get this. It's the narrow road that leads to life that few find or even know about (Matthew 7:12-14).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So - no one ever committed suicide? Or wanted to but did not carry it out?
How about those who intentionally cut themselves, or are bulimic? Do they not exist?

Please square those realities with what you are trying to say with that verse.

None of these qualifies as love for oneself, so it does not constitute any part of 'love your neighbor as (you love) yourself' (Leviticus 19:18).

 

[Hopeful]

That's Paul's point exactly!
Don't be afraid of the body of sin that has died in Christ.

The point Paul is making is the flesh no longer has authority over you to make you submit to what it wants, because the law that enforced your submission to the flesh (Romans 7:8,11) is only in effect while the flesh is still alive. 'Husband' flesh, who by force of law made us do what it desired (1 Corinthians 15:56), died with Christ on the cross and so it lost it's power, it's authority, afforded by the law to make you do what it desires.


Exactly!
The flesh no longer has the authority to make you sin. It's power, afforded by the law (see references above), has ended, because the flesh is dead. Your flesh is like a deceased husband who no longer has the lawful authority to make you to submit to it's desires because he's dead. And so it is on this truth that Christians can resist the dictates of the flesh. That's a dead man speaking. You don't have to listen to what he says anymore.

I love you man...
How long have you been sinless?