Why not Calvinism?

[handy]

Thanks, Nick!

I do think that most Calvinists would hold to double predestination. The difference between a hyper Calvinist and a true Calvinist would be that the hyper Calvinist would say that God actively works towards the damnation of the reprobate. They would look towards texts that teach that God "hardens" hearts of individuals and make the conclusion that God will actively intervene and harden the heart of a reprobate.

A true Calvinist (true as opposed to hyper) would say that God does not actively intervene and cause someone to sin because that would be unjust of God. God is never the author of injustice. Again, the subltitles of all of this can cause one's eyes to cross at times, but I do see the difference between the three, even if I can't fully articulate it.

Perhaps if we go back to Sissy's illustration (I love illustrations) we could say that in single predestination, only one child is represented in the illustration. While it's understood that there is a second child, that child doesn't come into the picture.

Double predestination as understood by most Calvinists would be the illustration of both children being at the table, the Father filling both plates to the brim, both children rejecting it, and the Father intervening with one of the children so that child will eat, but leaves the other in their rejection.

Hyper Calvinism would be that the Father commands both children to eat, but actively gives food to the one and actively keeps food from the other.

Clear as mud, yes?:silly

...and I hold to single predestination as well.

 

[Nick]

Thanks, Nick!

I do think that most Calvinists would hold to double predestination. The difference between a hyper Calvinist and a true Calvinist would be that the hyper Calvinist would say that God actively works towards the damnation of the reprobate. They would look towards texts that teach that God "hardens" hearts of individuals and make the conclusion that God will actively intervene and harden the heart of a reprobate.

A true Calvinist (true as opposed to hyper) would say that God does not actively intervene and cause someone to sin because that would be unjust of God. God is never the author of injustice. Again, the subltitles of all of this can cause one's eyes to cross at times, but I do see the difference between the three, even if I can't fully articulate it.

Perhaps if we go back to Sissy's illustration (I love illustrations) we could say that in single predestination, only one child is represented in the illustration. While it's understood that there is a second child, that child doesn't come into the picture.

Double predestination as understood by most Calvinists would be the illustration of both children being at the table, the Father filling both plates to the brim, both children rejecting it, and the Father intervening with one of the children so that child will eat, but leaves the other in their rejection.

Hyper Calvinism would be that the Father commands both children to eat, but actively gives food to the one and actively keeps food from the other.

Clear as mud, yes?:silly

...and I hold to single predestination as well.

Ok, yes, we do agree

I dion't really hold to doulbe-predestination about I don't think it's beyond God's power to harden certain souls....I'm just not sure whether He does it. I do get confused by ths subject, lol.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Double Predestination is True, and should preached as the Gospel ! God has from eternity, determined some vessels of wrath, and some vessels of mercy !

 

[Drew]

Double Predestination is True, and should preached as the Gospel ! God has from eternity, determined some vessels of wrath, and some vessels of mercy !

The problem, of course, is that the context of Romans 9 - whether the vessels appear - is a treatment about Israel and what has happened to her. It is exceedingly unlikely that Paul would forget about what he is otherwise clearly talking about - Israel - to make some kind of general theological statement about double-predestination, one that has no Israel-specificity whatsoever.

It is fascinating to see how people read double-predestination into Romans 9 when it is clear that the overall structure of the Romans 9 argument simply does not allow for this.

Assuming, of course, that Paul is not given to fits of amnesia in respect to what he is talking about.

 

[watchman F]

Double Predestination is True, and should preached as the Gospel ! God has from eternity, determined some vessels of wrath, and some vessels of mercy !

That anyone would believe or teach this is a disgrace, and it is opposed to the truth of the gosple. Jesus came so that ALL could be reconciled.

 

[Oats]

Sorry...2

That anyone would believe or teach this is a disgrace, and it is opposed to the truth of the gosple. Jesus came so that ALL could be reconciled.

Proverbs 16

1 The preparations of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
But the LORD weighs the spirits.
3 Commit your works to the LORD,
And your thoughts will be established.
4 The LORD has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD;
Though they join forces,[a] none will go unpunished.
6 In mercy and truth
Atonement is provided for iniquity;
And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil.

I think that Gods ways are mysterious and we can't always "figure" The Lord out...We should all pray for understanding

 

[watchman F]

I think that Gods ways are mysterious and we can't always "figure" The Lord out...We should all pray for understanding

We may not be able to figure him out, but we can believe his word, and his word say that Jesus Christ is the savior of all, and that God wants all to be saved.

 

[Sissy]

The predestination vs. freewill controversy is an argument looking for a reason to exist.

It derives it's argument from a poorly translating the Greek word as the English language definition.
In English it gives the impression that something has been predetermined that can only have one outcome.
But that is not what the Greek language portrays.
The Greek only means that something is predetermined, but does not mean there is only one outcome of that predetermined plan.

An example of this would be similar to me predetermining a Tupperware party.
I plan this party, announce this party, invite everyone, and promise a free gift.
Only those who chose to respond by coming to the party will receive the free gift.
So, I have predetermined the party and free gifts, but I did not predetermine who would come. It was their choice whether to respond or not.


I know that I chose God.
I could have chosen another god to follow, but I chose the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I choose Him everyday. And I know that I am capable of choosing to abandon Him and follow another god, if I so desired.

1 Kings 18
(21) And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

​

I am not between two opinions. I made a choice.

Joshua 24
(15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
​

That's the choice I made.

 

[Nick]

Thread moved to Apologetics & Theology. Keep it civil people, but debate is now allowed.

 

[Danus]

Danus, we seem to be in such lock and step in so many theological areas. Can you say exactly what your understanding is of predestination/Calvinism? Do you believe some of God's children were created for the sole purpose of destruction? Just clarifying! Thanks, bra

Yes, I did not want to expand it but now that we moved the thread. So to Handy as well....

Fist let me say that the Calvinism argument, to me, is found between the Armenian view vs Calvinism. (I think) As far as election. I'm drawing on my mental notes so bare with me....but the Armenian view is that we have a choice to act upon the "wooing" of the spirit. The Calvinist view is that we don't, rather some are ellect and some are not. There seems to be a sub-argument as to wheather or not God himselfe made the choice or he simply knows who will and who won't since he knows all.

So, here is my take. Predestination: 1. God knows all. The beginning and the end. If that's true then he knows who will and who will not respond. However, I don't believe that he willfully elects, nor do I believe he does not wast time on those he knows will not respond. So with that I'm more Armenian. But, I don't believe anyone is elect for say.....rather Christ is the elect only and those who are in Christ (believers) are counted as elect.

Do I believe in predestination? Yes. Do I believe God plays a willful role in such?...NO, and so with that I lean that we have a choice and that God does not influence that choice but that he makes it available to all even though he knows who will and who will not respond. ....Just to reiterate...only Christ is elect and those in Christ are counted as such.

I'm not sure if this thought is shared,or written any place, but I'm sure it's not new. But if it is...I might be the next great theologian on this. I can see it now (Danusium) "he's a Danist! burn'em!" Good thing I can run real fast

 

[Mike]

Yes, I did not want to expand it but now that we moved the thread. So to Handy as well....

Fist let me say that the Calvinism argument, to me, is found between the Armenian view vs Calvinism. (I think) As far as election. I'm drawing on my mental notes so bare with me....but the Armenian view is that we have a choice to act upon the "wooing" of the spirit. The Calvinist view is that we don't, rather some are ellect and some are not. There seems to be a sub-argument as to wheather or not God himselfe made the choice or he simply knows who will and who won't since he knows all.

So, here is my take. Predestination: 1. God knows all. The beginning and the end. If that's true then he knows who will and who will not respond. However, I don't believe that he willfully elects, nor do I believe he does not wast time on those he knows will not respond. So with that I'm more Armenian. But, I don't believe anyone is elect for say.....rather Christ is the elect only and those who are in Christ (believers) are counted as elect.

Do I believe in predestination? Yes. Do I believe God plays a willful role in such?...NO, and so with that I lean that we have a choice and that God does not influence that choice but that he makes it available to all even though he knows who will and who will not respond. ....Just to reiterate...only Christ is elect and those in Christ are counted as such.

I'm not sure if this thought is shared,or written any place, but I'm sure it's not new. But if it is...I might be the next great theologian on this. I can see it now (Danusium) "he's a Danist! burn'em!" Good thing I can run real fast

That doesn't sound like Predestination as I've ever heard it. That sounds more like "foreknowledge", which I believe any Christian would agree with. God knows everything that will happen. Again, I get wrapped up in my linear confines. God is not. I believe He sees all of history and all of the future before Him.

You didn't answer my question directly, (did God create some with the sole purpose that they would perish), but from what you've stated here, I think I know your answer. And I think we're back on the same page! Given that you believe God has "foreknowledge", but doesn't actively prevent some from coming to Him, I'm curious why you would say you believe in Predestination?

 

[Danus]

That doesn't sound like Predestination as I've ever heard it. That sounds more like "foreknowledge", which I believe any Christian would agree with. God knows everything that will happen. Again, I get wrapped up in my linear confines. God is not. I believe He sees all of history and all of the future before Him.

You didn't answer my question directly, (did God create some with the sole purpose that they would perish), but from what you've stated here, I think I know your answer. And I think we're back on the same page! Given that you believe God has "foreknowledge", but doesn't actively prevent some from coming to Him, I'm curious why you would say you believe in Predestination?

Well, I have 15 min to answer this but we can talk further. Foreknowledge of events and predestination coexist in my thought on this. Does God predestine? I mean willfully predestine? Does he create some to be saved specifically and not others? NO in my view. That's not predestination anyway.

Predestination is what is.

We know what was and what is, but we can't say for certain what will be. Can God? yes. he has foreknowledge. What then do we have? a choice, but limited only to what is. when we make the choice to follow Christ, or believe, we set ourselves on the path of being counted elect.

I have simply simplified predestination. That's all. and I've taken God's willful influence out, bu replaced it with our willful choice. God is love, God is good, God is right....that part never changes, but our decision to follow is our and ours alone.

I see man as a lost dog. God on one side and say satin on the other. However man comes to is the owner. Her boy! over here...these are the influences from both sides so to speak. However, God knows the outcome, but he does not stop calling. Why? because it's against the nature of God to do so. He's always there, he's there for all, salvation is for all who chose it. God knows who will and who will not do so. Does he want all to do so? yes because again, any less would be counter to his nature. The choice of our destiny in that matter lies with us, but there is a future we can not see and that is our PRE-Destination.

That's how I get my head around predestination. Perhaps that's not how you have heard it,but what do you think?

 

[Mike]

Well, I have 15 min to answer this but we can talk further. Foreknowledge of events and predestination coexist in my thought on this. Does God predestine? I mean willfully predestine? Does he create some to be saved specifically and not others? NO in my view. That's not predestination anyway.

Predestination is what is.

We know what was and what is, but we can't say for certain what will be. Can God? yes. he has foreknowledge. What then do we have? a choice, but limited only to what is. when we make the choice to follow Christ, or believe, we set ourselves on the path of being counted elect.

I have simply simplified predestination. That's all. and I've taken God's willful influence out, bu replaced it with our willful choice. God is love, God is good, God is right....that part never changes, but our decision to follow is our and ours alone.

I see man as a lost dog. God on one side and say satin on the other. However man comes to is the owner. Her boy! over here...these are the influences from both sides so to speak. However, God knows the outcome, but he does not stop calling. Why? because it's against the nature of God to do so. He's always there, he's there for all, salvation is for all who chose it. God knows who will and who will not do so. Does he want all to do so? yes because again, any less would be counter to his nature. The choice of our destiny in that matter lies with us, but there is a future we can not see and that is our PRE-Destination.

That's how I get my head around predestination. Perhaps that's not how you have heard it,but what do you think?

I love it, and my guess is that many people who oppose predestination will as well. But I don't think it's going to agree with many who accept it. I might be wrong. Thank you for spelling out your understanding of it. I'm hoping to see others do this as well. My guess is that we'll see a wide array of views on what Predestination is!

Thank you Danus!! :yes

 

[Oats]

We may not be able to figure him out, but we can believe his word, and his word say that Jesus Christ is the savior of all, and that God wants all to be saved.

What about that scripture I provided?

 

[Adstar]

God created some souls with the intent that they would perish and some that that they would live with Him forever.

Yep i agree. Nice condensation of what calvanisim boils down to. If calvanisim is correct God created people who have no other eternal destiny but to burn for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

Of cource i do not believe in calvanisim.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Oh i must add i do believe in God predestining people. But that it comes from His foreknowledge of them. Not from Him predetermining them.

I hope people can understand what i just said.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Nick]

Good reference from Wikipedia:

Calvinistic predestination is sometimes referred to as "double predestination."[2] This is the view that God chose who would go to heaven, and who to hell, and that his decision is infallibly to come to pass. This point of view simultaneously denies that God is the Author of Evil, but the issue is a very difficult point of the doctrine of predestination. The difference between elect and reprobate is not in themselves, all being equally unworthy, but in God's sovereign decision to show mercy to some, to save some and not others. It is called double predestination because it holds that God chose both whom to save and whom to damn, as opposed to single predestination which contends that though he chose whom to save, he did not choose whom to damn.

Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe in single predestination.

 

[Adstar]

I got these definitions of the 5 pillars of calvanisim from a calvanist.

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints." (OSAS)

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."


"Unconditional Election" (Predestination) definitely states that God creates some people to have no other eternal destiny but to have eternity with Him and that He also created people to who have no other eternal destiny then to burn in the Lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[savedbygrace57]

watchman:

That anyone would believe or teach this is a disgrace,

Paul did, and so does any real believer in Christ !

 

[savedbygrace57]

I got these definitions of the 5 pillars of calvanisim from a calvanist.

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints." (OSAS)

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."


"Unconditional Election" (Predestination) definitely states that God creates some people to have no other eternal destiny but to have eternity with Him and that He also created people to who have no other eternal destiny then to burn in the Lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Excellent summation of the Gospel of Christ !