Why not Calvinism?

[jasoncran]

Jason, the harden your hearts phrase is found 3 times in Hebrews. They are quotes from the OT which is referring to the wanderings in the wilderness. Certainly I could not affirm that all the Jews that rejected God in the wilderness were saved. In fact at no point in Israel's history could I say that they were all saved. This subject might be a little complex, but not all Israel was Israel (Romans 9:6). I would discuss that in detail, but I fear others making in convoluted. In essence, that text is saying that not all genetic Israel was saved.

Concerning working out our salvation, I do not see how that means we are not chosen. Would not that mean that we are in fact chosen to salvation? You might want to explain that one.

if we are choosen and preordained to salvation, then what that means when we can work out our salvation.
we can walk away from our salvation by choice, we need to be cautious as we should love sin so much that we leave the lord.

 

[Danus]

salvation through baptism to my knowledge is unique only to the church of christ movement.

Perhaps. Just using it as an example of thoughts that do exist, but that do not fully square with scripture, yet people hold on to them for whatever reason.

In the case of election, being chosen, predestination......it deserves some thought and attention. I think people have a hard time with it because they want to know if they are chosen. "OMGosh...what if I'm not chosen?" this seems to be on the mind when thinking in this area.

However, we need to be careful I think that we don't miss what's being said to this, that we don't just blow it off as untrue and false just because it seems scary. There are some great gems in Calvin's theology and the bottom line is that no one who seeks God need fear it.

 

[Mike]

So, I'm no Calvin killer. I don't look down on anyone who is a 5 or 4 point Calvinist. I've really not found anything I can identify as clear heresy to mainstream or orthodoxy of Christianity anymore than some of the many thoughts people have in places where the bible is largely silent, or compared to other sideways ideas that don't seem to have much biblical foundation at all. (Like the idea of salvation through baptism)...as example.

It would be quite extreme to use this issue as a litmus test of a Christian. The thought has never entered my mind that it should. Sadly, I will say that someone here (months ago) PM'd me, declaring that I am not a Christian because I don't hold to predestination.

Pre-trib, post-trib; predestination, free will - some differences are so well defended by scripture on both sides of them, it's hard for me to imagine a day when there will ever be a meeting of the minds. Until the day when we meet the Lord and see His Face, this and other issues will stand. But, they don't have to stand between us to the point of division. I need to stop saying those who hold to predestination are wrong. I'm being led to say what I should say, and that is this is what I believe to be true, and one day I'll find out along with everyone else.

Certain things I can say are most definitely true, and that's what binds us together. Jesus is the living God. Whether I came to know that because I was chosen to, or because I responded when I was called, that doesn't change the fact that I will spend eternity in the presence of Him.

Romans 8
"And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

 

[Danus]

It would be quite extreme to use this issue as a litmus test of a Christian. The thought has never entered my mind that it should. Sadly, I will say that someone here (months ago) PM'd me, declaring that I am not a Christian because I don't hold to predestination.

Pre-trib, post-trib; predestination, free will - some differences are so well defended by scripture on both sides of them, it's hard for me to imagine a day when there will ever be a meeting of the minds. Until the day when we meet the Lord and see His Face, this and other issues will stand. But, they don't have to stand between us to the point of division. I need to stop saying those who hold to predestination are wrong. I'm being led to say what I should say, and that is this is what I believe to be true, and one day I'll find out along with everyone else.

Certain things I can say are most definitely true, and that's what binds us together. Jesus is the living God. Whether I came to know that because I was chosen to, or because I responded when I was called, that doesn't change the fact that I will spend eternity in the presence of Him.

Romans 8
"And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

Well said sir.
I would never accuse anyone who loves Christ in terms of accepting the gift of salvation in faith as not being Christian.

Funny story, I have a friend who is in seminary to become a priest. Smart guy and good friend, or at least I think we still are. I know he's busy but he's not returned my phone calls since our last discussion that got a little heated over what started as a friendly debate over Catholicism vs Protestantism. My last words to him where; "Well John, when we see each other in haven I hope your not too P*&%ed off that I'm there".......we hurt each other over stupid ideology, but I hurt him worse I think. Not worth it. Bothers should not fight.

 

[Nick]

if we are choosen and preordained to salvation, then what that means when we can work out our salvation.
we can walk away from our salvation by choice, we need to be cautious as we should love sin so much that we leave the lord.

Just thought I'd quickly jump in here. I'd argue that anyone who as truly experience a relationship with the Living God cannot just 'walk away' from it. If it appears someone has, I would argue that perhaps they never knew God. If you sincerley are a Christian in your heart, then I can't see how could could possibly walk away from it.
I have talked to a few pastors both from my church and from other churches about this, and they do agree on this.

 

[savedbygrace57]

denn says of jn 3 16

This tells me that anyone has the option to believe and be saved.

Sorry, thats not what Jn 3 16 says, that is what you read into it !

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

if we are choosen and preordained to salvation, then what that means when we can work out our salvation.
we can walk away from our salvation by choice,

Where did you come up with this ? Surely not the bible !

 

[savedbygrace57]

watchman:

It is a disgrace for anyone that would believe God predestines people to Hell. Thiis belief opposes the gosple

Not at all, its an integral part of the gospel.

 

[Mike]

watchman:
Not at all, its an integral part of the gospel.

savedbygrace, given your strong convictions with this subject, I'm curious. Would you disagree with my overall statement here?

It would be quite extreme to use this issue as a litmus test of a Christian. The thought has never entered my mind that it should. Sadly, I will say that someone here (months ago) PM'd me, declaring that I am not a Christian because I don't hold to predestination.

Pre-trib, post-trib; predestination, free will - some differences are so well defended by scripture on both sides of them, it's hard for me to imagine a day when there will ever be a meeting of the minds. Until the day when we meet the Lord and see His Face, this and other issues will stand. But, they don't have to stand between us to the point of division. I need to stop saying those who hold to predestination are wrong. I'm being led to say what I should say, and that is this is what I believe to be true, and one day I'll find out along with everyone else.

Certain things I can say are most definitely true, and that's what binds us together. Jesus is the living God. Whether I came to know that because I was chosen to, or because I responded when I was called, that doesn't change the fact that I will spend eternity in the presence of Him.

Romans 8
"And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

 

[mondar]

if we are choosen and preordained to salvation, then what that means when we can work out our salvation.
we can walk away from our salvation by choice, we need to be cautious as we should love sin so much that we leave the lord.

Jasoncran, if the new nature created in man, the new heart is placed in a person, and it leads to faith, how could that same new heart lead one to "leave the lord?"

Everyone agrees that there are those who go apostate. The question is not do some go apostate, but why do certain people apostatize. One clear text to answer that question is 1John 2

18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

The antichrists who apostatized went out from the congregation of faith, but they were never really one of the congregation. The went out, because the change of heart was not there. If the change of the inner man had been there, they would be righteous.

1John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.

The interesting thing about verse 29 is that the word "begotten" is in the perfect tense. It speaks of a past event with present results. The present results are righteousness in this verse. We do righteousness because we were "begotten of him." The words "one who does" is a present tense participle and speaks of continuous action. So then, the one born of God will live a righteous life.

My conclusion is that the fact of apostasy does not mean that one has lost salvation, but it is evidence that such a one never had salvation. Those of faith will always continue in faith, or the faith was not real.

Jason, if I can say a few things about our everyday experience. I am saddened by the widespread apostasy in our Churches in our day. I suspect that you are also. We both agree on that. I see the problem of apostasy as related to a false gospel. I see the evangelism of someone like Charles Finney as causing more apostasy then anything else in the USA. In Finney's theology, he denied justification by faith alone, and preached that any positive decision about anything related to Christ was sufficient for salvation. That is the etymology of "ask Jesus into your heart" or "give your life to Jesus" and all Finney theology stuff. If we begin with a crystal clear gospel, and faith and repentance follow, then apostasy will not happen. If one is truely born of God, there will never be apostasy. Apostasy begins with a fuzzy gospel bringing a person into a Church, and then the person goes off into sin and apostasies.... because they were never "of us."

 

[Dennyh]

denn says of jn 3 16



Sorry, thats not what Jn 3 16 says, that is what you read into it !

Then what does it say?

 

[smaller]

Many believers are 'rightfully' against Calvinist views primarily for one reason. That reason IS the presentation that God made MOST of mankind to burn them alive forever.

Any LOVING HEART recoils in horror over this supposed FACT. I say 'supposed' because that understanding is REFUTED in the scriptures as such:

THOU SHALT LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELVES.

Any heart that accepts Calvins version of determinism, particularly determinism of the reprobate, is SEARED by the ETERNAL TORTURE FIRE they carry to those they have been commanded by GOD to LOVE.

Calvinism is quickly REFUTED by Romans 11:25-32 in which Paul teaches us that even the ENEMIES of the GOSPEL shall be saved. Not 'future' enemies, but the enemies that Paul referred to in the then present and PAST tense up to the point of his writing.

BUT it has been PREDETERMINED by God that SOME will NOT be ABLE to see this fact, and in this CALVIN ADHERENTS show the hardening exists within themselves, even while they claim the opposite. Funny how that works isn't it?

Calvins views are also refuted by MANY other scriptures. On the T of TOTAL DEPRAVITY Calvinism carries again A FATAL FLAW. How? All of ISRAEL are taught in the scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN. This matter is openly taught in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Mal. 2:10 and REAFFIRMED by Jesus in Matt. 23:9.

IF these scriptures are TRUE THEN in Calvinist understandings GOD BORE TOTALLY DEPRAVED CHILDREN and GOD IS THE FATHER OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY. This to me is another FATAL FLAW in 'Calvinism' and 'Reformed' versions of Calvinism.

I have no issues with Divine Sovereignty. I do NOT however take the views of a MAN named Calvin who had INDWELLING SIN as we ALL DO as the DETERMINANT of what DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY is or consists of for the obvious reason that CALVIN was NOT THAT SOVEREIGN.

It is one thing to claim DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY. It is quite another to claim to be the SOLE ARBITER of what that is or consists of. This too is the LOGIAL FALLACY of Calvinism, or determinism in general.

It is one thing to declare that DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY exists. It is quite another to claim to BE same. I can accept Calvins TULIP with MAJOR REVISIONS that Calvin does not even HAVE in his formula. He was CLOSE, but not quite THERE.

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

savedbygrace, given your strong convictions with this subject, I'm curious. Would you disagree with my overall statement here?

Put it like this, I believe that predestination is a basic Gospel Truth preached by the Apostles.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Then what does it say?

Jn 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Dennyh]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (my emphasis added)

This tells me that anyone has the option to believe and be saved.


How does that fit into Calvinism?

denn says of jn 3 16



Sorry, thats not what Jn 3 16 says, that is what you read into it !

Jn 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Okay, so in my haste to respond I left out part of the verse (unintentionally), but that does not change the meaning of the verse.

To keep the verse in context lets read verses 15-18:

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.




So you tell me what that section means.

 

[savedbygrace57]

den says that Jn 3 16 says this:

This tells me that anyone has the option to believe and be saved.

Jn 3 16 does not say that, it reads:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It does not make any conditions here, Jesus is making a statement, as to the purpose of His coming.

Those believing in Him have benefited from His coming and Gods Love for them.

His giving His Life for them secured unto them their not never perishing, because He gave His Life in their stead.

He says the same thing but a little differently here Jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

27My sheep hear my voice [not by their option either], and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Dennyh]

den says that Jn 3 16 says this:



Jn 3 16 does not say that, it reads:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It does not make any conditions here, Jesus is making a statement, as to the purpose of His coming.


.

That is exactly what Jesus is saying, anyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. The only condition is believing. Go back up to verse 15: that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. See it is conditional, believe and you are saved. Simple really.

 

[Elijah674]

Christ in John 12 says,
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also [[many believed ]] on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

It takes NO genius to understand what Believing in & on Christ means!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Doctrine of Election is the Gospel !

The Bible Doctrine of Election, a Gospel Truth rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This Gospel doctrine centers around the Truth that all the Heirs of God or Salvation were chosen by Him in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world, And as the Elect of God, they were all known, loved, and chosen in Christ, before they where born either of flesh and blood heb 2:14, or of the Spirit Jn 3

Notice in heb 2 14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

This intimates they were children before partaking of flesh and blood.

Just as God called Jacob and Easu Children before they came in flesh and blood rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born,

You see, they were children, though not yet born !

So the Church, Christ Body,as chosen in Him, were in a eternal vital union with their Glorious Head before Adam was ever fashioned out of the dust, for the Churches life was his with Christ in God.

Col 1:


17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning

In the beginning, before all things created, even Adam, He was the Head of the Body, the Church !

Also col 3:

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

This comes from being chosen in and adopted[as Sons or children] in Christ before the world began !

This is Gospel Truth !

 

[savedbygrace57]

den:

That is exactly what Jesus is saying, anyone who believes in Him will have eternal life

Actually, believing in Him is evidence of having eternal life.

One must first be in possession of eternal life to believe in Him.

Jn 6:54

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eating of His Flesh and Drinking of His Blood, means believing in him, and so one must first be having Eternal life to do that.

another scripture Jn 5:24a

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth[hearing] my word, and believeth [believing] on him that sent me, hath everlasting life

Believing and Hearing is evidential of already having Eternal life.

For one spiritually dead, cannot be Hearing the Word of God. One must be of God to Hear Gods words per Jn 8:

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So Hearing as in Jn 5 24 is evidence of possessing Eternal Life !