Raptures – Tribulation

[jocor]

It is in there if you're reading the Latin Vulgate.

The Vulgate is just a translation. If it is not in the Greek or Hebrew, then "rapture" is not an inspired word.

 

[jasonc]

What in the Heck is a Futurist?? I have heard of Pretreism, but not Futurist. There is a doctrine that there are no more "REAL" Jewish. One of the false Doctrines I have spoken about above. Paul was Born of Jewish descent (Free born) but He was fully a Roman citizen.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:24)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
(Rom 11:1-2)

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(Rom 11:7-8)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:26)

All of Israel shall be saved, by election, promise, God keeping his Word to them. They are the natural branches and have safety through their promise.

And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

So, there are Jewish folks that are still the Seed of Abraham through the promise and faith in God. It's why God helps them, like the war in 1967.

I gotta ask this.

so if there aren't jews in America. what would god do? food for thought. a jew need to have isreal to be around to even have that promise. did isreal exist prior 1948? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

it was part of Transjordan with more jews in Europa and elsewhere.

I see some miracles with modern day isreal but come on. one can leave isreal and still be of that nation. its not land. what does land matter? that is about the people not the LAND. how can ISREAL be forever when god is going to destroy the earth?!

a futurist is one who believes in the tribulation and also the return of isreal to the land. do you believe that this future isreal will atone by the mosaic law?

 

[Brother Mike]

I gotta ask this.

so if there aren't jews in America. what would god do? food for thought. a jew need to have isreal to be around to even have that promise. did isreal exist prior 1948? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

it was part of Transjordan with more jews in Europa and elsewhere.

I see some miracles with modern day isreal but come on. one can leave isreal and still be of that nation. its not land. what does land matter? that is about the people not the LAND. how can ISREAL be forever when god is going to destroy the earth?!

a futurist is one who believes in the tribulation and also the return of isreal to the land. do you believe that this future isreal will atone by the mosaic law?

I am not sure about atoning for some Law. If God said they are His predestined folks, then by promise they have hope. Paul said "If they believe" I am not sure what they are suppose to believe. In Jesus would be good.

I believe there are Jewish people everywhere, not just in Israel. I have not really looked that deep into that.

The thing is, many of us that are "SAVED" just have a Heart for Israel and for no other reason I think but that God put that in us to help his people that will listen.

Thank you for the information about what a futurist is.

 

[ezrider]

ok, then why do think that MODERN DAY ISREAL is in prophecy? to what just punish them? and what about the apostle paul and others? are they not jews? food for though if what you say is true then YOURE entire argument for the antichrist has just been negated. the temple isn't holy to god. the nation of god isn't just isreal but all that come to him.

and some wonder why im not a futurist, you and those that think like that are the reason im not anymore. if nationality doesn't matter then why do you think is going to punish isreal again? and isreal only?

Jason, a thought occurred to me the other day while I was commenting in my Bible study thread on the Two Covenants, and I would like to hear your thoughts.

In the scripture it is said that Jerusalem was to receive a double portion for her wickedness. Would you consider the double portion to be the two different times that Jerusalem was Judged and the temple destroyed. The first portion of judgement was delivered at the hand of the Babylonians as was prophesied by Jeremiah; and the second portion, or the double portion of judgement was delivered at the hand of the Romans as was prophesied by Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

The Vulgate is just a translation. If it is not in the Greek or Hebrew, then "rapture" is not an inspired word.

I fail to miss your point. Do you read Hebrew and Greek?
If not are you inspired words?

 

[Edward]

The Vulgate is just a translation. If it is not in the Greek or Hebrew, then "rapture" is not an inspired word.

The Greek word is Harpazo. Which I posted with it's Greek definition.

The word that evolved into 'rapture' was 'rapiemur'. That's the first person plural, passsive, of the verb 'rapio, rapere', which is translated as 'we....shall....be caught up...'

The parts of the verb are rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus. Its meanings are 'drag off, snatch, destroy, seize, carry off'. The future participle (English does not have an equivalent) is 'rapturus', one form of which is 'raptura'. The future participle translates roughly as 'about to carry off'. From 'raptura' it's a short jump to English 'rapture'.

That's probably more about Latin than you really wanted to know. BTW, the word 'rape' came to English from the same verb. SO if you read the 1 Thess 4:17 passage, you can see what it means and different translations use different words to transliterate it to so it is readable in your language. My point was not yes or no about whether the rapture will occur or when, but that the word rapture does occur in the bible in the Latin translation. Because people seem to want to keep saying that the word rapture isn't in the bible. That's all brother. I'm not here to argue about the rapture, take it for what you will. I just posted information, you should read and come to your own conclusions for yourself. But the word Harpazo is transliterated into the word rapture in at least one translation. No translation is the inspired word of God. Neither is your translation, whichever it may be...??, but what does Harpazo mean to you, in Greek.

Blessings brother.

 

[jasonc]

I am not sure about atoning for some Law. If God said they are His predestined folks, then by promise they have hope. Paul said "If they believe" I am not sure what they are suppose to believe. In Jesus would be good.

I believe there are Jewish people everywhere, not just in Israel. I have not really looked that deep into that.

The thing is, many of us that are "SAVED" just have a Heart for Israel and for no other reason I think but that God put that in us to help his people that will listen.

Thank you for the information about what a futurist is.

if a saved isreal is to be, what be that? a church! do you honestly see the problem? jesus is coming back to start another church? the first one failed him? isreal doesn't have that promise that hell shall not prevail against her. I believe that jews all over can and will be saved and god rears up isreal from them.

Chassidic judiasm is the largest jewish group. they aren't in just in isreal. I can go to them in Miami, Melbourne, stuart, florida.

 

[jasonc]

Jason, a thought occurred to me the other day while I was commenting in my Bible study thread on the Two Covenants, and I would like to hear your thoughts.

In the scripture it is said that Jerusalem was to receive a double portion for her wickedness. Would you consider the double portion to be the two different times that Jerusalem was Judged and the temple destroyed. The first portion of judgement was delivered at the hand of the Babylonians as was prophesied by Jeremiah; and the second portion, or the double portion of judgement was delivered at the hand of the Romans as was prophesied by Jesus.

can you post that verse?

 

[Brother Mike]

if a saved isreal is to be, what be that? a church! do you honestly see the problem? jesus is coming back to start another church? the first one failed him? isreal doesn't have that promise that hell shall not prevail against her. I believe that jews all over can and will be saved and god rears up isreal from them.

Chassidic judiasm is the largest jewish group. they aren't in just in isreal. I can go to them in Miami, Melbourne, stuart, florida.

I don't say I don't see issues with that. All I am saying is Israel has favor with God by scriptures, and some of the ground at least there was considered Holy to God, or favored. Acts 7:33

Paul did say those Jews that believed can be grafted back in being part of the natural branch, so there has to be some faith there. I don't disagree with you, I just feel that God's first people have a plan despite their rejection of the Lord Jesus. Simply because of the promise he made. How that works out for them, I am not sure. Might not work out for them all that well if they don't change their heart and faith.

Also, Rapture is a Bible word, used by Jerome. It's a Latin Word in place of Harpazo (However you spell it in Greek) or something that means snatched suddenly. Most likely taken from Raptor which is a bird of prey. It's some type of Falcon. So no sense in arguing with everyone about it since it's the same Word English translated caught up.

Thanx for the input.

Blessings.

 

[jasonc]

I don't say I don't see issues with that. All I am saying is Israel has favor with God by scriptures, and some of the ground at least there was considered Holy to God, or favored. Acts 7:33

Paul did say those Jews that believed can be grafted back in being part of the natural branch, so there has to be some faith there. I don't disagree with you, I just feel that God's first people have a plan despite their rejection of the Lord Jesus. Simply because of the promise he made. How that works out for them, I am not sure. Might not work out for them all that well if they don't change their heart and faith.

Also, Rapture is a Bible word, used by Jerome. It's a Latin Word in place of Harpazo (However you spell it in Greek) or something that means snatched suddenly. Most likely taken from Raptor which is a bird of prey. It's some type of Falcon. So no sense in arguing with everyone about it since it's the same Word English translated caught up.

Thanx for the input.

Blessings.

Isreal as in the jewish nation, not the land. I am of that nation. I don't feel any need nor compulsion to go there live. we must understand that its the people NOT the land that is thing He died for. futurism cant seem to get that right. wherever a jew is there is the nation. that is what they themselves say.

was per acts 7:33. if we are to say the mt.Moriah is always the place to met with god, or the closest per judiasm. we need to reread the gospel. Jesus said its not this temple or that temple but the truth and the spirit that God seeks.that is my problem with schofiedism.

 

[Deborah13]

can you post that verse?

Rev. 18:6 ?

 

[jasonc]

Rev. 18:6 ?

possible. but that is in the future of the first diaspora. though the sins listed by implication , the city of Jerusalem like it was in first diaspora was called Sodom and gommorah and even worse. so I can see that being the case.

 

[Edward]

Rev. 18:6 ?

I don't think so Deb. i tried to look it up too and hit on that verse, but it seemed to be talking about babylon and not Israel...

On a side but related note, I think that the primary purpose for the (great) tribulation is to bring God's chosen people to their knees (Israel) and that...they will of course, because that's mans nature to reach out to God when their backs against the wall.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think so Deb. i tried to look it up too and hit on that verse, but it seemed to be talking about babylon and not Israel...

On a side but related note, I think that the primary purpose for the (great) tribulation is to bring God's chosen people to their knees (Israel) and that...they will of course, because that's mans nature to reach out to God when their backs against the wall.

Do you know of a city named Babylon?

 

[follower]

Not at all. I believe the end times will happen pretty much along the lines of Rev.
I just see all that trib as being addressed to the, then, present day Jews....... and it clearly happened within that generation.
And I think the "rapture" is simply the day when Jesus comes back, not some secret whisking away of Christians.

hmmm. the Revelation of Yeshua to John tells how the end times happen.... sounds right.
the trib then, now?, later? .... probably yes.
when Yeshua cames back... ..... the Scripture says extremely clearly He only comes back once. and when He comes His people are caught up to Him in the air(literally or other), and the whole world - everyone KNOWS IT (i.e. nothing secret nor quiet about lightning from east to west that everyone in the world sees), and He wipes out the enemy surrounding yerusalem in a moment, and begins His rule. simple.
even if some other scenario were possible, in the Bible in Ephesians is a description of ecclesia (Christians) who are faithful and true, and , well, there's still a lot of work to do(for God and/or man) if that's the case.(for believers on earth today to get in the ballpark (caught up) with the Ephesians.)

 

[follower]

I don't think so Deb. i tried to look it up too and hit on that verse, but it seemed to be talking about babylon and not Israel...

On a side but related note, I think that the primary purpose for the (great) tribulation is to bring God's chosen people to their knees (Israel) and that...they will of course, because that's mans nature to reach out to God when their backs against the wall.

if it was man's nature to reach out to God when their backs are against the wall, then "the rest of the world doesn't even think of turning to God" wouldn't be found in Revelation (when/after 1/3 mankind is dead).

 

[ezrider]

can you post that verse?

Rev. 18:6 ?

Jer 16:17-18 For mine eyes are upon all their ways:they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes. And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jer 17:15-18 Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the Lord? let it come now. As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee:neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest:that which came out of my lips was right before thee. Be not a terror unto me:thou art my hope in the day of evil. Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded:let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed:bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

Rev 18:4-6
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
Come out of her, my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not of her plagues.
For her sins have reached unto heaven,
and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Reward her even as she rewarded you,
and double unto her double according to her works:
in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double

 

[reba]

hmmm. the Revelation of Yeshua to John tells how the end times happen.... sounds right.
the trib then, now?, later? .... probably yes.
when Yeshua cames back... ..... the Scripture says extremely clearly He only comes back once. and when He comes His people are caught up to Him in the air(literally or other), and the whole world - everyone KNOWS IT (i.e. nothing secret nor quiet about lightning from east to west that everyone in the world sees), and He wipes out the enemy surrounding yerusalem in a moment, and begins His rule. simple.
even if some other scenario were possible, in the Bible in Ephesians is a description of ecclesia (Christians) who are faithful and true, and , well, there's still a lot of work to do(for God and/or man) if that's the case.(for believers on earth today to get in the ballpark (caught up) with the Ephesians.)

I finely get it follower the why of how come you are so negative. You do not see Jesus ruling.You do not see Him as King..

Can any show me another place in Scripture that enplanes so directly what His Kingdom is.. This is the one i see..

Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Is the Holy Ghost for a future time or is He for today?

 

[follower]

Yeshua said Yhvh rules in the lives / hearts/ minds/ souls that are His.
Yeshua said the world will hate us who belong to Him, because the world hates Him.
simple.
(pure joy, righteousness and peace for ecclesia) . the aroma of death for those who reject Yeshua.

 

[Edward]

Do you know of a city named Babylon?

Yes and no. The old Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates river is said to be being rebuilt somewhat, but I do not believe that this will be the babylon of which is spoken of in scripture. I did a study on this awhile back and what I came up with was that, according to scripture and the descriptions of it, on seven hills and so forth, able to be seen by the sea and so forth...that it is likely to be Mecca.

My understanding is that Mecca is the originating place of Islam. My study indicated that it ties in with a lot of scriptures and makes sense that it could be the Babylon that is spoken of in the prophecies. It's destruction will come in one night (nuked). The old Babylon was never destroyed like the scriptures say it will be, ever. Not to that extent, taken over is not destroyed. This is such a succinct summation of this that it sort've needs it's own thread to go further into detail about it. I have a lot of notes about it, and perhaps even a video that has some info also. Maybe I'll dig it all out here in a few days and delve into it deeper on the forum here if you are interested in going further with it, or others...?