Raptures – Tribulation

[Brother Mike]

Brother, why do you keep ignoring the scriptures.

Why do you keep changing the subject.

Please stop trying to redefine scripture.

You can't get around the truth any longer.

Show the scripture where the Resurrection of the dead is Before the tribulation.

The rapture happens with the resurrection.

It one event.

If you don't have a scripture that clearly shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ as being before the tribulation, then it's case closed.

Please stop posting scriptures from Revelation that have nothing what so ever to do with the resurrection and rapture.

The last Trumpet has been shown to be when Jesus returns to gather his people at the resurrection, after the tribulation.

Jesus returns once.

The 144, 000 have nothing to do with this discussion.

. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This is clearly a POST-Trib scripture which shows the resurrection coming before the rapture and being one event.


Again, please answer the question.

Do you believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ happens BEFORE the tribulation?

Yes or No ?


JLB

I already posted them, I'll do it again. Let's try to remember what was already posted.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:21)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:1-2)

At the time trouble, there is a resurrection and we get delivered. End story.

 

[JLB]

I already posted them, I'll do it again. Let's try to remember what was already posted.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:21)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:1-2)

At the time trouble, there is a resurrection and we get delivered. End story.

At the Resurrection, some will arise to everlasting life...

The Resurrection comes after the tribulation, at the Coming of Jesus Christ.

The Resurrection and Rapture are one event.

The Rapture does not happen before the Resurrection.

Here is the specific timing of the Resurrection in correlation to the tribulation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken : 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

The gathering of His people at the Resurrection/Rapture occurs after the tribulation.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The Sabbath comment was just a split of two groups. One Group Jesus tells them to hope that they do not have to flee on the Sabbath day. Most Believers do not keep a Sabbath nor would be concerned about that. That group also did not address him as Lord. He tells that Group exactly when He will be coming back and what to look for. Down to the last 1/2 hour.

1st Group:
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(Mat 24:20)

Yeshua is talking to his disciples in Matthew 24:20. The "your" in that verse refers to the disciples. Yet, not the specific ones that were hearing him, but any disciples that would be living at the time the prophecy is fulfilled. Mt 24:20 is proof the Sabbath will be kept by Yeshua's disciples at that time. I am one of his end-time disciples and I call him Master/Lord. This division you or others have created is just a way to discredit the Sabbath.

The first group knows exactly when He is coming as they try to hide from him during that 1/2 of silence after the 6th seal.

The supposed "first group" are his disciples and have no need to hide. The ones that hide are unbelievers that do not know him.

When you talk of Saints, who are they, and how do they die?

Blessings.

Saints are believers in Messiah Yeshua that keep the commandments of Yahweh (including the Sabbath) and faith of and in Yeshua (Rev 12:17). They die in various ways. Some will die during the Great Tribulation (Rev 6:11), others will die at the hands of the beast (Rev 13:7).

 

[jocor]

The last Trumpet has been shown to be when Jesus returns to gather his people at the resurrection, after the tribulation.

Jesus returns once.

The 144, 000 have nothing to do with this discussion.

Yeshua will return several times. His second coming is at the last trump that the 7th angel sounds as you rightly discerned. At that time, he will take those firstfruits of the resurrection back to heaven with him. The remnant that is left will eventually be killed as well. He will return for them in Rev 14:13-16. They will also return to heaven with him. He will return again in Rev 19:11 to put down the wicked and set up the Kingdom on earth. He will resurrect the main harvest of souls at that time (Rev 20:4).

The first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal wheat harvest does. First the firstfruits are resurrected and ascend to heaven. They fulfill the two wave loaves offered on Pentecost in Lev 23. After the firstfruits are accepted by Yahweh, then the main harvest can take place.

 

[JLB]

Yeshua will return several times. His second coming is at the last trump that the 7th angel sounds as you rightly discerned. At that time, he will take those firstfruits of the resurrection back to heaven with him. The remnant that is left will eventually be killed as well. He will return for them in Rev 14:13-16. They will also return to heaven with him. He will return again in Rev 19:11 to put down the wicked and set up the Kingdom on earth. He will resurrect the main harvest of souls at that time (Rev 20:4).

The first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal wheat harvest does. First the firstfruits are resurrected and ascend to heaven. They fulfill the two wave loaves offered on Pentecost in Lev 23. After the firstfruits are accepted by Yahweh, then the main harvest can take place.

Jesus will not return several times.

This is not true!

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


He will return once and stay on Earth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Mathew 25:31-32


His Throne is on Earth.

His throne is in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Jesus will not return several times.

This is not true!

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


He will return once and stay on Earth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Mathew 25:31-32


His Throne is on Earth.

His throne is in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.


JLB

Hebrews 9:28 does not say he cannot come a third time.
Mt 25:31-32 refers to his coming to set up the Kingdom. It does not refer to his coming to resurrect the dead.

You believe Yeshua is coming to resurrect the dead at the 7th trumpet. Do you believe he will stay at that time and sit on his throne in Jerusalem? If so, will the seven vials be poured out while he is reigning in Jerusalem? If so, are you believing the coming in Rev 19:11 is the same coming as the one at the 7th trumpet?

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 9:28 does not say he cannot come a third time.
Mt 25:31-32 refers to his coming to set up the Kingdom. It does not refer to his coming to resurrect the dead.

You believe Yeshua is coming to resurrect the dead at the 7th trumpet. Do you believe he will stay at that time and sit on his throne in Jerusalem? If so, will the seven vials be poured out while he is reigning in Jerusalem? If so, are you believing the coming in Rev 19:11 is the same coming as the one at the 7th trumpet?

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Unless you can show a scripture that Jesus appears a third time, then you have just added your own words to the word of God.

This verse clearly teaches us that Jesus will appear a second time.

"For salvation" is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Resurrection.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


All those who are Christ's will be Gather together when He comes.

Not some, not part, not a remnant, not the raptured, but all those who are Christ's will be Gathered together to Jesus Christ, at His Coming.

He returns ONCE, to gather His people...


JLB

 

[jocor]

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Unless you can show a scripture that Jesus appears a third time, then you have just added your own words to the word of God.

This verse clearly teaches us that Jesus will appear a second time.

"For salvation" is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Resurrection.

I agree he will appear a second time and it will be to resurrect believers for salvation.

Please answer my questions in my last post so I can understand how you see it.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yeshua is talking to his disciples in Matthew 24:20. The "your" in that verse refers to the disciples. Yet, not the specific ones that were hearing him, but any disciples that would be living at the time the prophecy is fulfilled. Mt 24:20 is proof the Sabbath will be kept by Yeshua's disciples at that time. I am one of his end-time disciples and I call him Master/Lord. This division you or others have created is just a way to discredit the Sabbath.



The supposed "first group" are his disciples and have no need to hide. The ones that hide are unbelievers that do not know him.



Saints are believers in Messiah Yeshua that keep the commandments of Yahweh (including the Sabbath) and faith of and in Yeshua (Rev 12:17). They die in various ways. Some will die during the Great Tribulation (Rev 6:11), others will die at the hands of the beast (Rev 13:7).

The point about hiding was to show two separate events. The body of Christ is not subject to Satan in any way. He is even now subject to us. So him just killing us when he can't even get the job done now is not possible.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeshua will return several times. His second coming is at the last trump that the 7th angel sounds as you rightly discerned. At that time, he will take those firstfruits of the resurrection back to heaven with him. The remnant that is left will eventually be killed as well. He will return for them in Rev 14:13-16. They will also return to heaven with him. He will return again in Rev 19:11 to put down the wicked and set up the Kingdom on earth. He will resurrect the main harvest of souls at that time (Rev 20:4).

The first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal wheat harvest does. First the firstfruits are resurrected and ascend to heaven. They fulfill the two wave loaves offered on Pentecost in Lev 23. After the firstfruits are accepted by Yahweh, then the main harvest can take place.

I believe Yeshua fulfilled the two wave loaves offered on Pentecost. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection as scripture states.

 

[jocor]

The point about hiding was to show two separate events. The body of Christ is not subject to Satan in any way. He is even now subject to us. So him just killing us when he can't even get the job done now is not possible.

What makes you think he is not killing us now? Are you unaware of all the martyrs that died since Yeshua ascended to heaven until now? Who is killing the brethren in Rev 6:11? Who beheaded the brethren in Rev 20:4? I believe it was Satan working through his children.

 

[jocor]

I believe Yeshua fulfilled the two wave loaves offered on Pentecost. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection as scripture states.

The two wave loaves were made of wheat and baked with leaven. Yeshua is from the barley harvest and fulfills Lev 23:11-13. He fulfills the wave sheaf offering and the grain offering that was baked without leaven. The 288,000 fulfill the two wave loaves. The wave loaves are "the firstfruits unto Yahweh" (vs.17) and they are for the priest (Yeshua - vs.20). The 144,000 are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev 14:4), but they fulfill only one loaf. The group in Rev 7:4 fulfills the other loaf. Combined, they total 288,000 who will be Yeshua's right hand men serving him in his Kingdom. They fulfill the type of the 288,000 men that served King David in his Kingdom (1Ch 27:1-15).

 

[Brother Mike]

What makes you think he is not killing us now? Are you unaware of all the martyrs that died since Yeshua ascended to heaven until now? Who is killing the brethren in Rev 6:11? Who beheaded the brethren in Rev 20:4? I believe it was Satan working through his children.

Why did Jesus come again? No doubt Satan is behind the murders. To kill anyone he would have to have a place to do so, and we were commanded not to give him a place.

You are perfectly safe if you don't allow that rat in.

 

[ezrider]

Unless you can show a scripture that Jesus appears a third time, then you have just added your own words to the word of God.

JLB

Did not the Lord appear to Abraham?
Did not Jacob wrestle with the Lord for a blessing?
Did not the Lord appear before Moses in a burning bush?
Was not the Lord with them as they wandered in the wilderness?
Did not the Lord appear in the midst of the children in the fiery furnace?

Who are you to declare that the Lord shall only appear twice?
How many time did he appear to the disciples after that he was risen?

 

[jocor]

Did not the Lord appear to Abraham?
Did not Jacob wrestle with the Lord for a blessing?
Did not the Lord appear before Moses in a burning bush?
Was not the Lord with them as they wandered in the wilderness?
Did not the Lord appear in the midst of the children in the fiery furnace?

Who are you to declare that the Lord shall only appear twice?
How many time did he appear to the disciples after that he was risen?

You misunderstood JLB's comment. He was talking about appearing a third time after his second appearance at the resurrection.

 

[jocor]

Why did Jesus come again? No doubt Satan is behind the murders. To kill anyone he would have to have a place to do so, and we were commanded not to give him a place.

You are perfectly safe if you don't allow that rat in.

So are you saying that anyone that died as a martyr such as Stephen, Peter, etc., did so because they gave place to Satan? I think not. He can take our life any time Yahweh allows it. Yahweh will allow the majority of believers to be killed during the Great Tribulation. There is no secret rapture that will save them.

 

[Deborah13]

The two wave loaves were made of wheat and baked with leaven. Yeshua is from the barley harvest and fulfills Lev 23:11-13. He fulfills the wave sheaf offering and the grain offering that was baked without leaven. The 288,000 fulfill the two wave loaves. The wave loaves are "the firstfruits unto Yahweh" (vs.17) and they are for the priest (Yeshua - vs.20). The 144,000 are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev 14:4), but they fulfill only one loaf. The group in Rev 7:4 fulfills the other loaf. Combined, they total 288,000 who will be Yeshua's right hand men serving him in his Kingdom. They fulfill the type of the 288,000 men that served King David in his Kingdom (1Ch 27:1-15).

Oh yes, I was thinking of the barley offering at Passover.
You've given me something new to study, thank you.

 

[JLB]

jocor said -

You believe Yeshua is coming to resurrect the dead at the 7th trumpet. Do you believe he will stay at that time and sit on his throne in Jerusalem? If so, will the seven vials be poured out while he is reigning in Jerusalem? If so, are you believing the coming in Rev 19:11 is the same coming as the one at the 7th trumpet?

I believe Jesus will return a second time.

The second coming.

He will leave the right hand of the Father and come to earth to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture and put an end to all rule and authority, and sit on His Throne to rule for 1000 literal earth years in natural time associated with this dimension of time and space.

There is only one second coming which is found in Matthew 24, Revelation 19, Zechariah 12 & 14.

The Resurrection and Rapture is one event.


JLB

 

[jocor]

I believe Jesus will return a second time.

The second coming.

He will leave the right hand of the Father and come to earth to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture and put an end to all rule and authority, and sit on His Throne to rule for 1000 literal earth years in natural time associated with this dimension of time and space.

There is only one second coming which is found in Matthew 24, Revelation 19, Zechariah 12 & 14.

The Resurrection and Rapture is one event.


JLB

Thanks. That answered my first two of three questions. Please answer the last one.

If so, are you believing the coming in Rev 19:11 is the same coming as the one at the 7th trumpet?

 

[JLB]

Thanks. That answered my first two of three questions. Please answer the last one.

If so, are you believing the coming in Rev 19:11 is the same coming as the one at the 7th trumpet?

Revelation 19 is the same Coming marked by the last trumpet.


JLB