The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Deborah13]

19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

Christ Took Our Punishment

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses[i] and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.[j] 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:19-31

 

[heymikey80]

Regarding Gen.12:1-4, Abraham had to "get out" and go in order to began to see the promise. Its always the faith that obeys that receives the blessing.

The promise is made at the same time as the command. You're saying Abraham had to see results of the promise in order to receive it? I'm saying God gave it to Abraham before he even lifted a finger to go.

 

[heymikey80]

Are we going to have to go through that again on this thread too?

Yep. The facts are still there. Confusing the English implications of "obey" with the Greek "hupakouo" -- "by-hearing", transliterated -- stretches what the word means in and of itself.

 

[Webb]

Certainly the promise was made to Abraham before he went. He nonetheless had to GO for the promise to be fulfilled. The faith that obeyed is the faith that has the blessing. Acts 2:38 is an example. The command was:"repent and be baptized." The promise was: "the remission of sins" and the "gift of the Holy Spirit." However only those who repented and were baptized received the promise. So with Abraham, he had to go to enjoy the promise. It goes without saying that before a promise is enjoyed, the terms of the promise must be met.

 

[rrowell]

Yep. The facts are still there. Confusing the English implications of "obey" with the Greek "hupakouo" -- "by-hearing", transliterated -- stretches what the word means in and of itself.

And just like our last debate over this word, it is in the 1 aorist active indicative 3rd person singular (just like it was before) and in its inflection, the best single word rendered is still (obey) and is used three times in the new testament Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 and all three times it is translated (obey) or (Obeyed),

There are 9 total inflections of the word, in 24 total occurrences, but this one is best translated (obey).

 

[heymikey80]

And just like our last debate over this word, it is in the 1 aorist active indicative 3rd person singular (just like it was before) and in its inflection, the best single word rendered is still (obey) and is used three times in the new testament Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 and all three times it is translated (obey) or (Obeyed),

There are 9 total inflections of the word, in 24 total occurrences, but this one is best translated (obey).

And as I pointed out it's also used of a judge hearing a case. It most clearly points to someone actually hearing, often as heeding a command, but it's actual hearing that's the focus: not the works.

 

[heymikey80]

Certainly the promise was made to Abraham before he went. He nonetheless had to GO for the promise to be fulfilled. The faith that obeyed is the faith that has the blessing. Acts 2:38 is an example. The command was:"repent and be baptized." The promise was: "the remission of sins" and the "gift of the Holy Spirit." However only those who repented and were baptized received the promise. So with Abraham, he had to go to enjoy the promise. It goes without saying that before a promise is enjoyed, the terms of the promise must be met.

Well at that point you're talking about fulfilling a promise -- not making it. Which is very much my point. You don't get the promise by fulfilling its conditions. You get the promise by someone promising it.

No work will make me heir to the Rothschild fortunes, no matter what I do.

What's more, God's said that once in, the conditions don't add works in order to stay in, either.

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by rrowell
And just like our last debate over this word, it is in the 1 aorist active indicative 3rd person singular (just like it was before) and in its inflection, the best single word rendered is still (obey) and is used three times in the new testament Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 and all three times it is translated (obey) or (Obeyed),

There are 9 total inflections of the word, in 24 total occurrences, but this one is best translated (obey).

And as I pointed out it's also used of a judge hearing a case. It most clearly points to someone actually hearing, often as heeding a command, but it's actual hearing that's the focus: not the works.

You can't twist the English to make your point, so you try to twist the Greek to make your point, and you cannot, the translators of our Bibles got it right.

Of course you can write your own bible if you want to...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"To the one who does not work but believes, his faith is credited as righteousness" Paul, speaking directly to the issue, separates faith from works. No interpretation, no inference, it's simply an explicit statement of Paul's.

Again, the works Paul is eliminating in Rom 4:4,5 are works of merit the worker in verse 4 does in trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace. Paul is not excluding obedient works for Abraham who believed had an obedient belief. From Rom 2:6-12 Rom 6:16-18 Rom 10:3,9,10 among many more verses just in the book of Romans Paul puts obedince before salvation making obedience necessary to being saved.

So if Paul eliminated obedient works in Rom 4:5 that means Rom 10:9,10 must read one believes bacause he already has salvation, one confesses with the mouth for he is already righteous which neither verse says.

A ridiculous mistake. Did you read what I said, that works result from the cause of the Spirit of God's presence????

If you're not reading and just reacting, then I've no interest in trying to parse through thoughtlessly inane reactions.

No. It resulted from his being saved.

And you owe me the apology.

What's worse: all the misquotes about the Greek word translated "obedience", being presumed to mean "works" -- when it doesn't.

First you do not get to define words as you so choose just so they will fit your theology.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed (hypakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went."


Does hypakouō simply mean a change of heart or attitude of just some mental assent or does it mean his working, his deed in obeying in going out?

Abraham did not obey hypakouō until he went out for just thinking about going out is not obeying by actually going out.

I'll ask again,

From Gen 12:1-4 God told Abraham to leave his house, land and kindred to go to a place God would show him.

Would Abraham's leaving or staying have nothing to do with his salvation?

 

[BornAgain]

And as I pointed out it's also used of a judge hearing a case. It most clearly points to someone actually hearing, often as heeding a command, but it's actual hearing that's the focus: not the works.

Hearing is a work....

 

[Webb]

Heymikey80
So, according to your reasoning Abraham would have received the promise had he not obeyed by going?? And the people of Pentecost would have enjoyed remission of sins and the gift of the Spirit had they not repented and obeyed in baptism??

 

[BornAgain]

Heymikey80
So, according to your reasoning Abraham would have received the promise had he not obeyed by going?? And the people of Pentecost would have enjoyed remission of sins and the gift of the Spirit had they not repented and obeyed in baptism??

Romans 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

When God said unto Abraham: "Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness." Gen 15:5, 6.
This was the same faith that led him to trust God and to leave the home of his childhood, and proved itself by many acts of obedience. He does not wonder at the promise of God, although he and Sarah, his wife, were both past age, but acts as moved by a living faith, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The purpose of that post of mine was to show that 'doing well' Rom 2:6,7 includes obeying the truth.

We all know faith in Christ includes obeying the truth. That's not the point of the 'righteousness (credited, by faith) apart from works' argument (Romans 4:6) as you and others erroneously think that teaching means.

What 'righteousness apart from works' means is a person is, legally speaking, MADE righteous in God's sight on the basis of their faith in Christ's blood all by itself, not by satisfactory performance of righteous deeds. How can faith do that--make a person legally absolved of guilt and unrighteousness before God?

I think people don't get it because they don't understand that faith in Christ's blood means having the sins you yourself can not atone for through your own righteousness forgiven, and the guilt and unrighteousness of those sins forever removed. That is how a person is made righteous in God's sight--through forgiveness. There is no other way to be made righteous. There is no such thing as being able to do something to make up for, and remove the unrighteousness of sin.

If you do not understand this you will never understand how (and why) a person is made righteous by their faith, all by itself apart from the doing of righteous work. Righteous work can not make a person righteous. Only having a formal, legal declaration of righteousness through forgiveness can do that. It is then that we show that we have that declaration of righteousness (given to us through the grace of the forgiveness of sins, not work) that we do righteous things. If we don't then do righteous things we are showing ourselves to not have been made righteous at all through trust in the blood of Christ--IOW, we can't be saved by a 'faith' that doesn't really trust in the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sin. Lack of righteous works shows you really haven't had your sins forgiven by faith in the blood of Christ that you claim. That 'faith' can not save you. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

That is why a person can't be saved without good works. Not because good works make us righteous, but because good works are what happens when a person has placed their trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sins. Lack of good works shows you really haven't been declared righteous by faith in the blood of Christ. That is why you can't be saved without good works--not because good works make a person righteous, but because good works are the evidence of having had your sins forgiven for free--the thing that does justify a person.

According to that passage in Rom 2:6-11 God will render to each person according to his deeds. No verse anywhere says one will be judge according to if he had faith only or not. So your deeds wil either justify or condemn you, cf 2 Cor 5:10


Rom 5:1---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-----works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

How does this prove that the good work that accompanies salvation is what makes a person righteous and not the faith that motivated it? You simply do not understand that 'righteousness apart from works' does not mean faith doesn't have to be accompanied by works. It means the faith does the justifying, all by itself, apart from the work it produces.

You are showing that you simply do not understand the argument Paul is making. It doesn't mean righteous work doesn't have to accompany salvation. It means faith, all by itself, is what justifies a person, not the work that accompanies faith.

Since there is but just one way to be justified/saved, no alternatives, that can only mean that faith is equivalent to works, faith is a work. To suggest otherwise creates contradictions.

Your logic is distorted. Trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sins is hardly the same as doing righteous things to remove unrighteousness.

By virtue of what it means to trust God for a declaration of righteousness through the blood of Christ it's easy to see how that contrasts with your own righteous work to get a declaration of righteousness. In fact it's impossible to trust in the blood to forgive sin, AND trust in your own righteousness to be made righteous. They are diametrically opposed to each other. If you could make yourself righteous through your own work there would be no need for the blood of Christ to remove unrighteousness. And it's utter blasphemy to think that the blood of Christ all by itself is insufficient to forgive sin.

 

[Webb]

Romans 4:3 is a qoute from Gen.15:6 which concludes Abraham could not have been justified by the law (Moses) as such law was not then in existence, and even before the covenant of circumcision Abraham appears in scripture already as an obedient believer in God. The promise of the blessing of Abraham's seed began in Gen. 12. Prior to the event of Gen.15:6 Abraham's obedient faith may be seen: (1) God called Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees, Gen.12:1-3; (2) Abram believed and obeyed, not even knowing whither he went, Heb.11:8; (2) Abram built an altar and worshiped God upon arriving at Shechem in Caanan, Gen.12:6,7; (3) On a mountain between Ai and Bethel he built an altar unto God, Gen.12:8; (4) Upon returning from Egypt he came to same altar and worshiped God, Gen.13:3,4; (5) He appears with Melchizedek as a DEVOUT and FAITIHFUL worshiper of God, Gen.14:14-24. All of this occurred BEFORE Gen. 15:6 which is the quotre of Rom.4:3. The facts are that for numerous years before the statement in Gen. 15:6 Abraham had already been a faithful and obedient servant of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 4:3 is a qoute from Gen.15:6 which concludes Abraham could not have been justified by the law (Moses) as such law was not then in existence, and even before the covenant of circumcision Abraham appears in scripture already as an obedient believer in God. The promise of the blessing of Abraham's seed began in Gen. 12. Prior to the event of Gen.15:6 Abraham's obedient faith may be seen: (1) God called Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees, Gen.12:1-3; (2) Abram believed and obeyed, not even knowing whither he went, Heb.11:8; (2) Abram built an altar and worshiped God upon arriving at Shechem in Caanan, Gen.12:6,7; (3) On a mountain between Ai and Bethel he built an altar unto God, Gen.12:8; (4) Upon returning from Egypt he came to same altar and worshiped God, Gen.13:3,4; (5) He appears with Melchizedek as a DEVOUT and FAITIHFUL worshiper of God, Gen.14:14-24. All of this occurred BEFORE Gen. 15:6 which is the quotre of Rom.4:3. The facts are that for numerous years before the statement in Gen. 15:6 Abraham had already been a faithful and obedient servant of God.

It's Abraham's faith in the promise of a son that declares him righteous before God, not the faith he displayed in leaving his homeland and building altars,etc. And it is Abraham offering that son up on the altar that is used to validate the faith that was reckoned to him as righteousness, not his faith in leaving his homeland, etc.

So it is for us today. It is faith in God's Promise of a Son (Jesus) that is reckoned as righteousness to a person. Not the faith to leave your Father's house and go to church, or read a Bible, or anything else...even if those things really are born out of faith at work in a person. Didn't you do faithful things before you actually placed your faith in God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ? Did those faithful things save you? Of course not!

Only faith in the forgiveness of God given us in his Son, Jesus Christ, makes a person righteous. Not the faith to do other things It is the specific faith in the Promised Son that justifies. Not just the faith to do obedient things.


"21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." (Romans 4:21-24 NIV1984)

Like Abraham, we also believe in God's promise of a Son who will come from our own bodies (via the Holy Spirit) who will inherit the blessing on our behalf. It is THAT specific faith that is reckoned to a person as righteousness. Not the faith to go to church, read a Bible, pray, move to a new country, etc.

 

[Webb]

Hello old friend Jethro

The point I made was that Abraham was already an obedient believer when Gen.15:6 was made. There is a difference, you know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hello old friend Jethro

The point I made was that Abraham was already an obedient believer when Gen.15:6 was made. There is a difference, you know.

It was Abraham's faith in the promised son that was reckoned to him as righteousness. Faith to leave a homeland, or go to church, or worship at an altar, or any other obedience is not what God reckons as righteousness...even if those other things are motivated by belief in God.

Only a very specific faith, faith in Jesus Christ, is reckoned to a person as righteousness. To say that any and all faith and obedience is what is reckoned as righteousness to a person is to not know the gospel at all. We all do righteous things before and after salvation, but only trusting in the blood of the Promised Son, Jesus Christ, will be credited to a person as righteousness. Because only the blood of Christ removes unrighteousness and makes righteous.

This is why I've been saying since I've been in this forum that the 'works gospel' argument simply does not know the true gospel as the forgiveness of sins. It can't fathom how forgiveness alone is how a person is declared righteous before God. It's impossible to work yourself into right standing with God. Impossible. But that hardly means work doesn't have to accompany a declaration of righteous given on the basis of faith in God's forgiveness all by itself. That's not what 'righteousness apart from works' is even talking about. But the works gospel argument uses James' argument, which does address that separate issue, to somehow show that Paul was saying a man has righteousness credited to his account by what he does. A complete confounding of scripture, and certainly a good example of not rightly dividing the Word of God.

 

[Webb]

Its as previously stated, Abraham had been an obedient believer from the time of Gen.12. In vs. 1 God told Abraham to "get thee out of thy country". In vs. 2 and 3 God gives the promise of of his seed blessing "all families of the earth." This involves the son Isaac as Abraham had no children at that time. In vs. 4, "Abraham departed as the Lord had spoken unto him." Abraham believed, believed the "all nations" promise (meaning he would have to have seed) and Abraham departed in obedience. Now, WHEN did God say He KNEW Abraham believed? The answer is found in Gen. 22, begin the reading in vs.12-18. Abraham had been an obedient believer from chapter 12 on. Again, chapter 12 spoke of the seed promise which would necessitate a son as heir.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Its as previously stated, Abraham had been an obedient believer from the time of Gen.12. In vs. 1 God told Abraham to "get thee out of thy country". In vs. 2 and 3 God gives the promise of of his seed blessing "all families of the earth." This involves the son Isaac as Abraham had no children at that time. In vs. 4, "Abraham departed as the Lord had spoken unto him." Abraham believed, believed the "all nations" promise (meaning he would have to have seed) and Abraham departed in obedience. Now, WHEN did God say He KNEW Abraham believed? The answer is found in Gen. 22, begin the reading in vs.12-18. Abraham had been an obedient believer from chapter 12 on. Again, chapter 12 spoke of the seed promise which would necessitate a son as heir.

How does this prove that a man is made righteous by what he does and not by the faith that motivates what he does?

The account plainly shows us that a man has righteousness credited to his account by believing in the promised son (Paul's argument). Abraham's actions at the altar are how we know a person has the righteousness of faith, and how it is necessary to be able to see the evidence of faith for that faith to be a faith that is able to save (James' argument).

Abraham was made righteous in God's sight, by what he believed in Genesis 15. Abraham was shown to have that righteousness (through his faith in God's promise made to him in Genesis 15) by what he did in Genesis 22 (James' argument). Two very different arguments. But two very real components of salvation. But it's your faith in the Son that credits righteousness to your account, not what you do as a result of having faith in God's promise. That is what 'righteousness apart from works' means. It does not mean the righteousness that comes by faith apart from works doesn't have to produce works. Don't use James' argument to disprove something that Paul is not even arguing for.

Faith is how righteousness is credited to a person. Faith does that, all by itself. But the faith that secures a declaration of righteousness must be able to be seen in what it does...or else it's not a quality of faith that can save. If you can't see faith at work in you, then you have a faith that can not save you. Not as you and others erroneously conclude that you can't be saved by a faith barren of works because works are the actual agent of justification. That is NOT why a barren faith can't save a person. A barren 'faith' is the absence of the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.

 

[Webb]

Abraham did believe in "the promised son" back in Gen.12. He had NO heir then, yet the promise was that "all families" would be blessed through him, he then left the Ur of Chaldees in obedience to what God said.