Eternal Security of the Believer

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings Randy

Because the board doesn't permit large posts, there will be two or more parts to my reply.

Evidently you believe Jesus did pre-exist, but was created and so is not God. Your "proof texts" suggest that is what you believe. I will endeavor to prove to you the texts you cite do not prove your point, and sometimes disprove it. Your words will be in Italic font.

Jesus always used God to refer to His Father.

Jesus is both God and man, the Christian doctrine of the two natures in Christ explains why many of your objections are "non sequiturs".

The Father is both God to the man Jesus, and truly the God the Son's Father---The Word is the "Only Begotten" Son of the Father.

"Begotten" or "born of" is not "created by". There is a "communication of Person that doesn't exist in a creation.

Just as God alone could give the Law, only God could give grace and truth. These cannot come from beings less than God:

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, `He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:14-18 NKJ)

To be in your Father's bosom is figurative for the intimate relationship a son has with his father. The Only Begotten Son alone has that intimate relationship, its impossible for a creature to attain it.

When Jesus said God is His Father, those who heard Him knew Christ was claiming to be God:

17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (Jn. 5:17-18 NKJ)

Jesus did NOT deny they were right, in fact He said all must honor the Son equally as they honor the Father:

23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him (Jn. 5:23 NKJ)

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
Ponder that. Can a mere man say this? No. Belief in Almighty God is far above any belief one can have in a creature. Therefore, when Jesus equated belief in God with belief in Himself, its implied He is equally God with the Father.

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
The context rejects your interpretation. The ruler called Jesus "good teacher", just like any other teacher he met. It was empty praise. Christ rejects the empty praise and forces his attention to God, who alone is good and therefore able to reveal the good that leads to eternal life:

18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
20 "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, '`Do not murder, '`Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Honor your father and your mother.'"
21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. (Lk. 18:18-23 NKJ)

You missed the implication in the context: Who is Jesus that He can demand the ruler sell all he owned. Clearly much more than a "good teacher." Jesus put his requirement the ruler sell all he owned, on par with God's commandments!

Only God can do that. Therefore, as God the Son Jesus is also good in the absolute sense.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Jesus has two natures by virtue of the Incarnation, He is fully man and fully God. As man He prays to God, obeys God, doesn't know what God knows. But as God the Son He is equal with God. I can't prove the Holy Trinity here in this post, you must do due diligence and research it yourself. I suggest you start with "Lectures in Systematic Theology" by Thiessen.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Eternal life depends on believing Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God:

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:28-31 NKJ)

Thomas finally realized Jesus is God, so should you.

Now Rev 3:14
...the beginning of the creation of GOD(The Father)
"Beginning" 746 ἀρχή arche can be "beginning," but also can mean "chief", the "agent that is the cause of something but does not itself have a cause" -Logos Bible Sense Lexicon. See how Young's literal translation and a few others read:

YLT Revelation 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

RPTE the Head of God's creation

BBE the head of God's new order:

NET the originator of God's creation:

NIV the ruler of God's creation.

As the Ruler of Creation, Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega", "I Jesus" is speaking, the Almighty (Rev. 1:8, 11; 21:6)

13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning (746 ἀρχή arche) and the End, the First and the Last.
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (Rev. 22:13-16 NKJ)

There can be only ONE Alpha and Omega, God and therefore Jesus is God equally with the Father. That is precisely what John says about the Word, the ruler of Creation, nothing was created without Him. That means He cannot be one of the things created:

NKJ John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

The firstborn of all creation
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Col. 1:15-16 NKJ)

The "firstborn" is the "heir of all creation", context totally rejects any idea Jesus is created. You cannot be the image of the invisible God, unless you are God who created all things in heaven and earth. Therefore, Jesus cannot be one of the things created.

Col 1:19 - from the will of another at a point in history before the world began. Why would God and there is only One need to receive the fullness from another? Wouldn't God be that Deity already?

18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Col. 1:18-20 NKJ)

The "fullness" refers to the humanity of Jesus, not His deity. "head of the body, the church, first born from the dead. You ignored the context completely.

"A verse taken out of context becomes a pretext"-Walter Martin.

Also speaks of another like Hebrews 1. "All things were created through Him and FOR Him"
Correct, therefore He cannot be one of the things created, He could create Himself through Himself!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Part ii

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was GOD how then do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"?

Again the two natures of Christ confuses you. As man Jesus gets hungry, sleeps, has a human spirit to commit to God. As God's Only Begotten Son, Jesus cannot be inferior to God just as your son is not a sub-human.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Two natures in the One Person of the Son, Lectures in Systematic Theology, time to know what Christians believe.

Scripture is 100% truth, truth never contradicts itself. There are texts that show Jesus as a man, other texts show He is God. If these two ideas seem contradictory to you it is because you lack perspective. You don't see Christ is fully God and fully man, simultaneously:
Jesus was in heaven even while He was on earth speaking:
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

In "the sphere of infinite radius that is the Person of God the Eternal Son our LORD Jesus became centered in the humanity of Jesus Christ"-John Walvoord paraphrased. God in two natures as Athanasius proved by the [sufficient] scriptures at the Council of Nicea.

Repeated in many of Pauls' letters
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
God the Eternal son is both God the Son and Christ, Paul didn't say differently.

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

The doctrine of "Eternal Generation" explains this (Lectures in Systematic Theology.)

1. This doctrine is not in conflict with the unity of God. There are three
persons in the one essence. Though there is no perfect analogy in human
experience to explain or illustrate the doctrine of the trinity, the analogy of
the human mind does provide a suggestion. The human mind is able to
dialogue with itself and at the same time is able to pass verdicts on its
deliberations. The trinity is faintly analogous to this.
2. These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which
imply Christ’s existence with the Father from eternity (John 1: If. ; 17:5,24;
Phil. 2:6) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy
Spirit (Gen. 1:2 ; Heb. 9: 14). The nature of the eternal relationship existing
between the Father and the Son is commonly spoken of as “generation,”
while the relationship between the Father and the Son, on the one hand, and
the Holy Spirit, on the other, is spoken of as “procession.” By “eternal
generation” is meant “eternal emanation.” God says, “Thou art My Son,
today I have begotten Thee” (Ps. 2: 7). The word “today” denotes the
universal present, the everlasting now. When Jesus said, “For just as the
Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in
Himself” (John 5:26), he spoke of an eternal communication of the life of the
Father to the Son. The term “procession,” as applied to the Holy Spirit, has
very much the same meaning as the term “generation” in connection with
the Son, except that the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from both the Father and the
Son (John 14:26; 15:26; Acts 2:33: Heb. 9:14).
3. The three are equal. And yet this does not exclude the arrangement by
means of which the Father is first, the Son second, and the Spirit third. This
is not a difference in glory, power, or length of existence, but simply of
order. The Spirit and the Son are equal, though subordinate to the Father.
This subordination is voluntary, not necessary (Phil. 2:5-7). - Lectures in Systematic Theology, p.98.

If Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose Son is He?

Why does Jesus call the Father His God?

Because He is, as the man Jesus. As God the Son begotten of the Father, God is His Father uniquely unlike anyone else.

That is what scripture says. You confuse what a father and son are among humans, with how God the Father and God the Son are to each other.

But one day you will confess Jesus Christ is God the Son, to the glory of God the Father.''

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11 NKJ)

Why did a God and there is only on who always was need to receive life in Himself from another?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

As the Father, Monarch of the Holy Trinity, He is the "source" of life. But these personal distinction in God are eternal, for God changes not.

And the titles "Father Son" when used of Persons in the Godhead, are not limited to how we use them about human beings. We are finite, God is infinite. On that basis alone, everything about God is unique, and using words "Father" and "Son" can only be 'approximations" at best, and any limitation humans have inherent in these terms, apply only to humans….not infinite God.

Why did God and there is only one need to receive authority from another?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Why did God give the Son all authority to judge? Because He wanted to. It was His to give.

Begotten before all worlds but not made - I agree IN PART
Better to agree with Scripture 100% than be wrong.

Do you think when Jesus was in Mary's crib this was done through Him as people were born into the world in those days.
The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares

Mary is "God bearer", not "God maker". The sphere of infinite radius that is the Son, became centered in the humanity of Christ, without "confusion" of essence. The Son has two natures that are separate, not confused in any way.

Ignorance of the holy Trinity is inexcusable for a Christian who has the mental capacity to learn it.

Its not a doctrine some in the church believe, its what Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, and most Others) believe Scripture teaches. Its been that way from the days of the apostles.

You really need to get on board for the "big win":

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Cor. 15:51-57 NKJ)

 

[JLB]

I see Jesus as the first being GOD called into existence,

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.


Begotten certainly doesn’t mean “called into existence“.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14





JLB

 

[Randy]

Part ii

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was GOD how then do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"?

Again the two natures of Christ confuses you. As man Jesus gets hungry, sleeps, has a human spirit to commit to God. As God's Only Begotten Son, Jesus cannot be inferior to God just as your son is not a sub-human.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Two natures in the One Person of the Son, Lectures in Systematic Theology, time to know what Christians believe.

Scripture is 100% truth, truth never contradicts itself. There are texts that show Jesus as a man, other texts show He is God. If these two ideas seem contradictory to you it is because you lack perspective. You don't see Christ is fully God and fully man, simultaneously:
Jesus was in heaven even while He was on earth speaking:
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

In "the sphere of infinite radius that is the Person of God the Eternal Son our LORD Jesus became centered in the humanity of Jesus Christ"-John Walvoord paraphrased. God in two natures as Athanasius proved by the [sufficient] scriptures at the Council of Nicea.

Repeated in many of Pauls' letters
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
God the Eternal son is both God the Son and Christ, Paul didn't say differently.

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

The doctrine of "Eternal Generation" explains this (Lectures in Systematic Theology.)

1. This doctrine is not in conflict with the unity of God. There are three
persons in the one essence. Though there is no perfect analogy in human
experience to explain or illustrate the doctrine of the trinity, the analogy of
the human mind does provide a suggestion. The human mind is able to
dialogue with itself and at the same time is able to pass verdicts on its
deliberations. The trinity is faintly analogous to this.
2. These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which
imply Christ’s existence with the Father from eternity (John 1: If. ; 17:5,24;
Phil. 2:6) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy
Spirit (Gen. 1:2 ; Heb. 9: 14). The nature of the eternal relationship existing
between the Father and the Son is commonly spoken of as “generation,”
while the relationship between the Father and the Son, on the one hand, and
the Holy Spirit, on the other, is spoken of as “procession.” By “eternal
generation” is meant “eternal emanation.” God says, “Thou art My Son,
today I have begotten Thee” (Ps. 2: 7). The word “today” denotes the
universal present, the everlasting now. When Jesus said, “For just as the
Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in
Himself” (John 5:26), he spoke of an eternal communication of the life of the
Father to the Son. The term “procession,” as applied to the Holy Spirit, has
very much the same meaning as the term “generation” in connection with
the Son, except that the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from both the Father and the
Son (John 14:26; 15:26; Acts 2:33: Heb. 9:14).
3. The three are equal. And yet this does not exclude the arrangement by
means of which the Father is first, the Son second, and the Spirit third. This
is not a difference in glory, power, or length of existence, but simply of
order. The Spirit and the Son are equal, though subordinate to the Father.
This subordination is voluntary, not necessary (Phil. 2:5-7). - Lectures in Systematic Theology, p.98.

If Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose Son is He?

Why does Jesus call the Father His God?

Because He is, as the man Jesus. As God the Son begotten of the Father, God is His Father uniquely unlike anyone else.

That is what scripture says. You confuse what a father and son are among humans, with how God the Father and God the Son are to each other.

But one day you will confess Jesus Christ is God the Son, to the glory of God the Father.''

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11 NKJ)

Why did a God and there is only on who always was need to receive life in Himself from another?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

As the Father, Monarch of the Holy Trinity, He is the "source" of life. But these personal distinction in God are eternal, for God changes not.

And the titles "Father Son" when used of Persons in the Godhead, are not limited to how we use them about human beings. We are finite, God is infinite. On that basis alone, everything about God is unique, and using words "Father" and "Son" can only be 'approximations" at best, and any limitation humans have inherent in these terms, apply only to humans….not infinite God.

Why did God and there is only one need to receive authority from another?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Why did God give the Son all authority to judge? Because He wanted to. It was His to give.

Begotten before all worlds but not made - I agree IN PART
Better to agree with Scripture 100% than be wrong.

Do you think when Jesus was in Mary's crib this was done through Him as people were born into the world in those days.
The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares

Mary is "God bearer", not "God maker". The sphere of infinite radius that is the Son, became centered in the humanity of Christ, without "confusion" of essence. The Son has two natures that are separate, not confused in any way.

Ignorance of the holy Trinity is inexcusable for a Christian who has the mental capacity to learn it.

Its not a doctrine some in the church believe, its what Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, and most Others) believe Scripture teaches. Its been that way from the days of the apostles.

You really need to get on board for the "big win":

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Cor. 15:51-57 NKJ)

If Jesus had a human spirit and a human body what part of Him was God?
Its clear to me that the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body. Jesus's spirit is not the Fathers Deity which lives in Him. So He could become the Son of Man.

The Father has always been Jesus's God and Jesus states that as truth not as Jesus of Nazareth.
Rev 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

God rested on the seventh day so the souls He form's within man must not be considered "the creation" There is a reason even Jesus calls Him heavenly Father because only His eternal Spirit forms other spirit. Which He started before all things with His firstborn which we know as Lord Jesus. It was HE who gifted His deity to dwell in ,Jesus Col 1:19, and He who made all things through and for and by Jesus. The Father does not and has not nor does He have any need to receive from any other being for from Him all things have come into existence. He is the One and Only true God and Jesus states "Only true God" as TRUTH. You believe in God believe also in Him.

 

[Randy]

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.


Begotten certainly doesn’t mean “called into existence“.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14





JLB

I agree in part -Begotten of the Father BEFORE all worlds but not made.

 

[JLB]

I agree in part -Begotten of the Father BEFORE all worlds but not made.

I am glad to agree with you brother, even if only in part.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If Jesus had a human spirit and a human body what part of Him was God?
Its clear to me that the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body. Jesus's spirit is not the Fathers Deity which lives in Him. So He could become the Son of Man.

It does require imagination, intellectual capacity to understand the basic teaching about God being infinite, and humans being finite.

That human nature exists in time and space, but Deity is where time and space exist:

They can't be confused. They exist without touching each other, yet God is still omnipresent.

God is infinite, everything is inside of God. God is not contained by heaven and earth (1 Kings 8:27) in Him everything consists:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

"for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:28 NKJ)

Until you grasp the basic concept of God being infinite, your thoughts about God will remain earthy, small, incompetent to the task.

Perhaps this analogy will help. A thought never touches the organ of the brain. If you picture a burning fire, it does not burn up your brain.

Although the organ of the brain is everywhere its thoughts are, never do they touch one another.

In similar fashion, God is everywhere, yet your spirit does not push His Spirit out of the way as you live and move and have your being. Human nature and Divine Nature do not exist in the same place, human nature is in time and space, God's nature is where time and space exist.

Like a thought in His infinite Brain.

Hope that helps.

PS:
I didn't reply in two parts for you to ignore it completely and keep asking relatively stupid questions. If you are sincere, you will go point by point, either agree or state why you disagree, with my answers to each of your questions.

But if you think you can ignore all that work, and keep asking absurd questions, you need to think again. I'm not your guy. Waste someone else's time. I have none to spare.

 

[Randy]

It does require imagination, intellectual capacity to understand the basic teaching about God being infinite, and humans being finite.

That human nature exists in time and space, but Deity is where time and space exist:

They can't be confused. They exist without touching each other, yet God is still omnipresent.

God is infinite, everything is inside of God. God is not contained by heaven and earth (1 Kings 8:27) in Him everything consists:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

"for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:28 NKJ)

Until you grasp the basic concept of God being infinite, your thoughts about God will remain earthy, small, incompetent to the task.

Perhaps this analogy will help. A thought never touches the organ of the brain. If you picture a burning fire, it does not burn up your brain.

Although the organ of the brain is everywhere its thoughts are, never do they touch one another.

In similar fashion, God is everywhere, yet your spirit does not push His Spirit out of the way as you live and move and have your being. Human nature and Divine Nature do not exist in the same place, human nature is in time and space, God's nature is where time and space exist.

Like a thought in His infinite Brain.

Hope that helps.

peace
al

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

I know my Lord. He knows me.

Jesus, the eternal life from the beginning, taught us the Father, that is what He saw/learned from being in His Fathers presence.
No one else has ever seen God.

Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and this is eternal life
that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

I'll be OK

 

[Alfred Persson]

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

I know my Lord. He knows me.

Jesus, the eternal life from the beginning, taught us the Father, that is what He saw/learned from being in His Fathers presence.
No one else has ever seen God.

Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and this is eternal life
that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

I'll be OK

False pretenses will not be rewarded. When you dispute Christian doctrine by asking questions its implied you actually want the answers. That you will listen to the response, think about it, and if you cannot agree state clearly why.

You asked questions only to attack Christianity, and wasted the time of those who tried to answer you.

John stated the matter clearly:

31 but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31-21:1 NAS)

You don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, you believe he is a creature. You have no life in Jesus until you repent.

But, and I must confess its not mainline Christian belief, that those who go to hell because they failed to believe Jesus is the Son of God, after sufficient torments to pay for all their sins, and after the torments have stripped away their stubborness against the Truth of God, that they can choose to repent or be lost forever.


So you got that to look forward to, all who died not believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, will perish:

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:18 NAS)

 

[Randy]

False pretenses will not be rewarded. When you dispute Christian doctrine by asking questions its implied you actually want the answers. That you will listen to the response, think about it, and if you cannot agree state clearly why.

You asked questions only to attack Christianity, and wasted the time of those who tried to answer you.

John stated the matter clearly:

31 but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31-21:1 NAS)

You don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, you believe he is a creature. You have no life in Jesus until you repent.

But, and I must confess its not mainline Christian belief, that those who go to hell because they failed to believe Jesus is the Son of God, after sufficient torments to pay for all their sins, and after the torments have stripped away their stubborness against the Truth of God, that they can choose to repent or be lost forever.


So you got that to look forward to, all who died not believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, will perish:

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:18 NAS)

I believe Jesus has always been the Son. What I don't believe is that Jesus, a human spirit, began in the womb of Mary.
So I guess you believe He is a creature.

 

[Randy]

I believe this and it doesn't speak of the Son who was.
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

As Jesus testified
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

The Son who was, HIS SPIRIT, was in the tent of that body

I tell you the truth though the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe Jesus has always been the Son. What I don't believe is that Jesus, a human spirit, began in the womb of Mary.
So I guess you believe He is a creature.

Only a fool would dispute what no one is claiming.

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. (Prov. 12:15 NAS)

Be wise, learn what Christians mean by "two natures in the Person of Jesus", then you will know how stupid it is to confuse the two natures and why no one is saying Jesus began in the womb of Mary.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1:14 NKJ)

The Word added to His divine nature (infinite God who created all things), human nature body soul and spirit. He didn't begin in Mary's Womb. You don't know how irrelevant that idea is to Christian doctrine, because you don't know Christian doctrine.

Yet, like a fool, you dispute it. Picture a man screaming at you "up is down", and he thinks himself very wise. But to you he's a fool, you never said "up is down."

 

[Randy]

Only a fool would dispute what no one is claiming.

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. (Prov. 12:15 NAS)

Be wise, learn what Christians mean by "two natures in the Person of Jesus", then you will know how stupid it is to confuse the two natures and why no one is saying Jesus began in the womb of Mary.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1:14 NKJ)

The Word added to His divine nature (infinite God who created all things), human nature body soul and spirit. He didn't begin in Mary's Womb. You don't know how irrelevant that idea is to Christian doctrine, because you don't know Christian doctrine.

Yet, like a fool, you dispute it. Picture a man screaming at you "up is down", and he thinks himself very wise. But to you he's a fool, you never said "up is down."

You believe Jesus had a human body. You believe Jesus had a human spirit.
What part of Him was God?

 

[Alfred Persson]

You believe Jesus had a human body. You believe Jesus had a human spirit.
What part of Him was God?

 

[Randy]

Really?
I think you believe the Logos wasn't created.

But from your stating Jesus's being or spirit was human and of course the body was human its clear to me you believe "Jesus of Nazareth" was created in the womb of Mary both body and spirit.

I maintain the deity in Jesus is that of the only true God the Father, Col 1:19, and in that unity alone Jesus is all that the Father is.

Since I don't believe Jesus's spirit is deity in itself I don't have to create a human spirit outlook to see a fully human Son of Man and its clear to me the "Son" who was, His spirit, was in the "body" prepared for Him and the Father was still living in Him.

And as I stated before I don't desire to argue and argue the trinity.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

From what you state -Jesus of Nazareth had a human spirit He couldn't be that one eternal Spirit of God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Really?
I think you believe the Logos wasn't created.

But from your stating Jesus's being or spirit was human and of course the body was human its clear to me you believe "Jesus of Nazareth" was created in the womb of Mary both body and spirit.

I maintain the deity in Jesus is that of the only true God the Father, Col 1:19, and in that unity alone Jesus is all that the Father is.

Since I don't believe Jesus's spirit is deity in itself I don't have to create a human spirit outlook to see a fully human Son of Man and its clear to me the "Son" who was, His spirit, was in the "body" prepared for Him and the Father was still living in Him.

And as I stated before I don't desire to argue and argue the trinity.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

From what you state -Jesus of Nazareth had a human spirit He couldn't be that one eternal Spirit of God.

So if there is only "one Spirit" Jesus doesn't have a spirit? Only God's essence is in Jesus, His "fullness" and nothing belonging to Jesus Himself?

 

[Randy]

So if there is only "one Spirit" Jesus doesn't have a spirit? Only God's essence is in Jesus, His "fullness" and nothing belonging to Jesus Himself?

Yes He has a spirit before man or the world began. A firstborn Son not Deity. So it wasn't a human spirit. The firstborn of all creation.
This event took place at a point in history before the world began. A beginning not always was. It is from the will of another and the other is defining Jesus's being as in Jesus's God. Col 1:19

I believe the same God who spoke through the prophets spoke to us in these last day by His Son. The one living in Jesus doing His work. The one Jesus calls the only true God and His God and our God. The same Son through whom God made the creation and appointed heir of all things. The Son "God" set above all others not meaning "God" Himself. You will note Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth as another. The Father does not for it is His Spirit as in the Spirit of "God" not God the Spirit. The Fathers promise "In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"....The Fathers own Spirit would have His nature. Holy, Eternal, Divine, Truth

As Paul writes several times in his letters.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

AND directly states. This is my belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Rev 1
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits a before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

So I believe all the fullness of the Deity dwells in Jesus but it is the Fathers Deity. In that unity Jesus is all that the Father is and He and the Father are one.

 

[Cooper]

So if there is only "one Spirit" Jesus doesn't have a spirit? Only God's essence is in Jesus, His "fullness" and nothing belonging to Jesus Himself?

We have a human spirit as opposed to God who IS spirit, and although Jesus had a body like ours, in no way did he have our spirit. For all the fulness of the Father who is Spirit dwells in Him. GOD IN CHRIST 2 Cor 5:19.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We have a human spirit as opposed to God who IS spirit, and although Jesus had a body like ours, in no way did he have our spirit. For all the fulness of the Father who is Spirit dwells in Him. GOD IN CHRIST 2 Cor 5:19.

I asked Randy what he believed. I'm Orthodox Trinitarian friend.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes He has a spirit before man or the world began. A firstborn Son not Deity. So it wasn't a human spirit. The firstborn of all creation.
This event took place at a point in history before the world began. A beginning not always was. It is from the will of another and the other is defining Jesus's being as in Jesus's God. Col 1:19

I believe the same God who spoke through the prophets spoke to us in these last day by His Son. The one living in Jesus doing His work. The one Jesus calls the only true God and His God and our God. The same Son through whom God made the creation and appointed heir of all things. The Son "God" set above all others not meaning "God" Himself. You will note Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth as another. The Father does not for it is His Spirit as in the Spirit of "God" not God the Spirit. The Fathers promise "In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"....The Fathers own Spirit would have His nature. Holy, Eternal, Divine, Truth

As Paul writes several times in his letters.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

AND directly states. This is my belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Rev 1
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits a before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

So I believe all the fullness of the Deity dwells in Jesus but it is the Fathers Deity. In that unity Jesus is all that the Father is and He and the Father are one.

So, Jesus doesn't really exist, the "Son" is the Father in a different mode or manifestation? Jesus isn't human as he doesn't have a human spirit?

AND directly states. This is my belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Your belief is the Father alone exists, when Paul says "and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live" that is an illusion, Jesus is actually the fullness of the Father?