Is TULIP biblical?

[JLB]

Just like that? Unregenerate people can just choose to believe?

Do you agree that salvation is a work of God from start to finish?


Yet you use the word triune...


Which isn't a word that appears in the Greek and is used to translate three different words which all mean "deity," "divinity," "divine nature," or something of that nature.


Just like any other category given to biblical theology, it is meant as a summation of the teachings of Scripture.




Again, this is fallacious. Provide scriptures that use triune, rapture, divinity, omniscience, omnipotence, monotheism, or incarnation.

Asking for scripture to back up your beliefs is how I find out if your doctrine is from God or not.


Please address my post # 62.

 

[Free]

Choose to believe what?

You’re the one who said:

“I believe Jesus Christ paid the price for all the world to be saved.

Only those who believe will be saved.”

And that is what I responded to.

A person must first hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That’s why it’s called the hearing of faith.

Here is the step by step process of salvation:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Israel Rejects the Gospel
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

A person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be saved; born again, regenerated.

• But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

This is all just begging the question. It’s why asked what I did.

 

[JLB]

But you have used some of them. Why do you use them and tell others not to?

It just proves my point that certain words or phrases don’t have to appear in the Bible in order for the concepts that they refer to be true.

I don’t use those words.

The only word from that list I have used is rapture.

Because the person and I both agreed that word referred to the catching up of those who were alive and remain.


The whole TULIP Acronym can’t be found in scripture because it is man made.

 

[JLB]

This is all just begging the question. It’s why asked what I did.

Romans 10:8-17 is begging the question?

Please explain how Romans 10:8-17 is begging the question?



Here is the step by step process of salvation:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

A person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be saved; born again, regenerated.

• But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

 

[Free]

Judas choose to follow Jesus when he heard His voice, like the other eleven.

Did he?

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Jhn 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him. (ESV)

Judas was a disciple that followed the Lord for three and a half years like the other eleven.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

Judas was one of His sheep, then he became lost.


Judas was promoted to an apostle and empowered being send out to preach the gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils, like the other eleven.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4



Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



Judas chose to betray Jesus Christ unlike the other eleven.

Did he?

Jhn 13:10 Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.”
Jhn 13:11 For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”
…
Jhn 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
…
Jhn 13:27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” (ESV)

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (ESV)

How much choice did Judas have?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Sorry, but I can't see where any of the passages you cited are relevant to TULIP at all.

ok

A few problems with this statement:

1. It is fallacious to think that anyone who looks at those passages without bias should then come to believe as you do.

I never said you would.

2. It is fallacious to think that you are without bias--everyone is biased in one way or another.

I'm just telling you what I did. If you can't look at the gospel objevtively then ok.

You don't even know what I believe on just this issue alone.

You believe Jesus died in place of you. I believed that once too, but "Jesus dying for people" doesn't mean "in place of people to me now.

You're not serious about this because you know that we are not the same person.

I think it's very strange to ignore Bible verses in any conversation. I don't do that.

I don't know what you mean by "what's really sad," but that isn't quite what Paul said. He was speaking in past tense--that had already happened:

Yes I know. Leaving the knowledge of God led them to hate. I can't think of anything more hateful than our Father inflicting torment on His Son.
I can't believe how without natural affection I was in my thinking about our Father felt about His Son being abused.

Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV)

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV)

That was from the start of the fall and is a consistent message throughout the Bible, and that is what continues on today.

It certainly does. I think repentance was needed. They probably passed the blame onto someone else.

I don't know what your point is with any of this.

My point is it makes way more sense to expect sinners to repent or face judgement than to

But, it is interesting that you believe the "flagrant disregard for God's word began in the Garden of Eden"

Yes, the devil knew Gods' law and didn't care. that's toal depravity and he was the only one cursed for it.

but don't believe that the result was the total depravity of man.

I said it can lead to people becoming totally depraved, just like Rom.1 actually confims. Paul said mankind became that way.
I won't respond further.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus paid the price for us to have salvation but a person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be saved.

1) God punishing His Son in place of sinners.
or,
2) Man punishing His Son in place of His
Father.

If you believe 1, take defeat 2 using the scriptures. Heads up, it can't be done.

If you mean salvation is a work of God from start to finish and man does nothing, then no I totally disagree.

Please show me the scripture that says —

“salvation is a work of God from start to finish”.

The "reformed" church can't do that, because they've taken the God out of the gospel.

The truth is simply this. God has given us everything, so in that very real sense we have nothing to offer God it doesn't belong to him already,

If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is Mine, and the fulness thereof. Psa.50:12

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own. Lk.16:10-12

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Did he?

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Jhn 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him. (ESV)



Did he?

Jhn 13:10 Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.”
Jhn 13:11 For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”
…
Jhn 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
…
Jhn 13:27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” (ESV)

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (ESV)

How much choice did Judas have?

At least Judas realized what he did wrong and before the Great Lord Jesus roae from the dead. That's way more than any Calvanist can say.

Be sure never to charge anyone falsely with evil. Never sentence an innocent or blameless person to death, for I never declare a guilty person to be innocent. Exo.23:7 NLT

I like the way the NLT puts things in easy to understand language. Alway check the usage of words if something doesn't make sense. This wording is in perfect harmony with the Siptit of Gods' Word,

As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die? Eze.33:11 NLT

This makes perfect sense with everything in the Bible.

Now listen. Only negative comments from people or no comments at all.

Can anybody hear what the Messiahs' Prophets were saying?

 

[Iconoclast]

No it isn't. Calvanists have said this plainly to me on this board many times.

Absolutely. Just go to the Calvanist section on this board right now and ask any Calvinist if they have the ability to repent by reason of Christ teachings, or by reason of the miracles he performed to confirm his teachings.
The answer will be no. You will be told as I always have been that people are totally depraved and without God using an irresistible force pulling us toward him, we cannot know anything about God.

That is not true.

Of course it is true for anyone who reads the scripture with understanding

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Of course it is true for anyone who reads the scripture with understanding

I meant Calvanists.

 

[Free]

I don’t use those words.

The only word from that list I have used is rapture.

Because the person and I both agreed that word referred to the catching up of those who were alive and remain.

Is that so? You should know better that I do my homework before making claims like that.

Where you used TRIUNE.

You’ve used rapture numerous times in many threads: HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE, for example.

You’ve used divinity several times in different threads: HERE, HERE, and HERE, for example.

You say God is omnipotent HERE.

You used omnipotent in THIS POST several times.

MONOTHEISTIC and incarnation HERE, HERE, and HERE, for example.

Half of them you haven't used much, but you have used all of them.

The whole TULIP Acronym can’t be found in scripture because it is man made.

Which is irrelevant because it’s a fallacious argument.

 

[Free]

Romans 10:8-17 is begging the question?

Please explain how Romans 10:8-17 is begging the question?

You're begging the question; people make errors in reasoning.

Here is the step by step process of salvation:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

A person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be saved; born again, regenerated.

• But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Again, this is begging the question.

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the doctrine of TULIP as taught by Calvinist’s is false… being promoted from an unbiblical foundation which denies that man has the ability to choose.


Surely you understand this?


Or, maybe you can give a scripture with the phrase … Totally Depraved or Unconditional Election or Limited Atonement?






JLB

sure...right after you give one on free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

I meant Calvanists.

who was Calvan?" You studied this so much you cannot even spell a name right

 

[Free]

I never said you would.

You implied it: "The scripture I cited along with my comments about those passages took the L out. Just look at those passages without bias."

I'm just telling you what I did. If you can't look at the gospel objevtively then ok.

And, again, you're implying that if someone doesn't believe as you do then they're not being objective whereas you are.

You believe Jesus died in place of you. I believed that once too, but "Jesus dying for people" doesn't mean "in place of people to me now.

While penal substitutionary atonement is absolutely central to the cross and unites all other doctrines of the cross. Without it, we don't know why Jesus died; we don't have the gospel.

However, I was referring to TULIP, which is what we were talking about.

I think it's very strange to ignore Bible verses in any conversation. I don't do that.

I don't either, not purposely anyway. But that doesn't have anything to do with my comment.

Yes I know. Leaving the knowledge of God led them to hate. I can't think of anything more hateful than our Father inflicting torment on His Son.
I can't believe how without natural affection I was in my thinking about our Father felt about His Son being abused.

That has nothing to do directly with what we were talking about, which was Rom 1. Paul is talking about all people who are ungodly and unrighteous and suppress the truth. That goes much farther back than the cross. Why do you think God nearly wiped out everyone other than Noah and his family?

My point is it makes way more sense to expect sinners to repent or face judgement than to

"Than to"...?

Yes, the devil knew Gods' law and didn't care. that's toal depravity and he was the only one cursed for it.

It seems that you don't know what total depravity is. I think this is the case with a lot of non-Calvinists--a lack of understanding how Calvinists actually define the terms they're using.

I said it can lead to people becoming totally depraved, just like Rom.1 actually confims.

Calvinism? Rightly understood it leads the other way.

Paul said mankind became that way.

Yes, because of the fall.

I won't respond further.

Ok.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You implied it: "The scripture I cited along with my comments about those passages took the L out. Just look at those passages without bias."

Then re-post the scripture I citied which actually means no body is depraved from birth or don't bother saying anything.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

"Than to"...?

Not be able to without knowledge that was common when I was a child.

do you mind me asking how old you are? not that more experience is any indication of wisdom but I've been around the block a few times with Jesus.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

comment.

That has nothing to do directly with what we were talking about, which was Rom 1.

It does to me.

Paul is talking about all people who are ungodly and unrighteous and suppress the truth.

Would that include people who said Jesus was a siinner?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus was guilty? Jesus needed to die?

He was numbered witn the transgressorsf?

Who regarded Jesus as a transgressor, his Father, or wicked man?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The reproaches of those who reproached you have fallen on me?

Now let's see. A reproach is an offense. So sinners who offended God by their deeds, offended His Son. by their sin against Him.